I do wonder- is this what the Brexiters wanted?

It was always about peoples lives. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

Well, fair enough. Actually I do sort of agree. I wanted to stay in but see the problems that membership were causing addressed.

But it was the denial of those who were doing well that there were any problems, that brought us to Brexit. A denial that is still very evident in many posts.

I don’t know why people should expect empathy and concern for their problems when they didn’t give any?
Except some of us can see both points of view?

Don’t think vegan said anything about thick.

IF THOSE WHO JUST COULDN'T BE BOTHERED TO TURN OUT TO VOTE HAD DONE SO WE WOULD IN ALL PROBABILITY STILL BE MEMBERS OF THE EU.

Sorry, I very, very rarely shout but everyone ignores that fact.

It's easy to blame those who exercised their franchise and voted differently to what many wanted but they had their reasons as did those who voted remain.

Presumably everyone on here with an opinion either way did vote but 27% did not.
Nearly 13 million eligible voters just couldn't be bothered.

That is what makes me cross.

Peasblossom

It was always about peoples lives. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

Well someone mentioned luck.

I don’t know why people should expect empathy and concern for their problems when they didn’t give any?

If that was aimed in my direction I wasn't expecting empathy from those who only want to create a squabble. If not it would be polite to tell the person concern who you are aiming your comment at. Very rude just to put it out there to offend as many as you can.

Except some of us can see both points of view.

Mmm. Far more never even try and understand the argument let alone the point of view.

Callistemon

IF THOSE WHO JUST COULDN'T BE BOTHERED TO TURN OUT TO VOTE HAD DONE SO WE WOULD IN ALL PROBABILITY STILL BE MEMBERS OF THE EU.

Sorry, I very, very rarely shout but everyone ignores that fact.

It's easy to blame those who exercised their franchise and voted differently to what many wanted but they had their reasons as did those who voted remain.

Presumably everyone on here with an opinion either way did vote but 27% did not.
Nearly 13 million eligible voters just couldn't be bothered.

That is what makes me cross.

If 13 million people choose to go through their life acting like sheep, that's fine, as long as they don't expect anybody to take their opinion seriously.

I haven't a clue how the 13 million would have voted if they'd been forced to vote.

Far more never even try and understand the argument let alone the point of view.

Very true (or maybe understand it and choose only to understand the bits which confirm their opinions).

Peasblossom I really don't understand what people lost because of the UK being in the EU. A large proportion of our major industries have gone, but not as a result of the EU.

The closure of the mines and the steelworks had little to do with the EU, if anything. The loss of the mines had something to do with Thatcher and her battle with the unions. Steelworks closed because it was cheaper to import steel from other EU countries.

The manufacture and export of textiles was the single most important industry in the UK in the Victorian era. By the 1980s this industry had almost disappeared. Partly because other countries, such as Japan developing its own industry but also because of the demand for cheaper goods and therefore cheaper labour so a large proportion went to Asia. This had no connection with the EU.

Lastly the closure of docks.

The above are examples of major industries of one or more of these areas - the midlands, the north, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Chatham dockyard also closed in the 70s but did get funding for regeneration.

The Brits are good at inventions and ideas, the inventor of the world wide web being British for example. The best actors in the world are British and you only have to look at American programmes to see them. I don't mean stars, I mean actors who can play a wide range of roles and aren't afraid of being baddies. Just compare Alan Rickman with Kevin Costner in Robin Hood. Which one was the best actor?

In addition to actors we have some of the best orchestras, dancers and singers, artists, designers and craftspeople but the govt is cutting back evermore on funding for training, starting with schools.

The Tories have been in power for 46 of the last 70 years and must share most of the blame for not taking care of the areas most disadvantaged. Remember Norman Tebbit and his "On your bike" speech in 1973?

Actually I entered the debate Dnahmo when somebody posted that those who voted out were tax-dodging traitors.

I pointed out that the biggest out vote came from the some of the poorest areas of Eastern England.

Subsequently I’ve tried to explain (unsuccessfully) why that area of England believed that membership of the EU was not a good option for them.

My posts have all been, I think, about the impact of EU membership on agriculture n that area. Wouldn’t dispute anything you’ve posted about industry because my knowledge of how EU membership affected that is limited.

I try not to direct anything personally at any one poster but I admit my “empathy” post did come from requoting Kali, I think who complained that those who voted leave had no empathy with those who wanted to travel abroad.

Peasblossom
There is an element of truth in tax dodgers voting to leave in that the likes of JRM and his cronies were anxious to leave because of new laws being brought in by the EU to counter tax evasion.

I have read all the posts but don't have time at the moment (because I've just sat at my computer to start work) to look for that particular post. But I can't imagine that anybody on here would think that those disenfranchised and disatisfied people are tax dodgers. Of course, there may be a few "cash in hand" workers but any tax lost because of them is minute compared to that lost by the multinationals not paying the correct amount.

Some of the movers and shakers behind Brexit are tax dodgers, who wanted to avoid the EU's moves towards greater financial transparency and regulations. They knew perfectly well that the majority wouldn't support tax dodging, so they cleverly set out to appeal to a completely different demographic - people who felt they weren't being listened to by traditional government.

There's a video somewhere of Dominic Cummings boasting about how he and his cronies duped the public. If it hasn't been removed because it's obviously quite embarrassing, I'll see if I can find it.

Of course the tax dodging billionaires were only a tiny insignificant proportion of leave voters but they were hugely influential, because of ownership and control of the media.

What a lot of whinging and misinformation about Brexit. It’s happened so deal with it. This constant looking back helps no one. I am just glad we didn’t have Corbin, almost jumping off a Cliff would have been better. As for looking out a video of what Dominic Cummings is supposed to have said, who is interested in the self serving man. He wasn’t interested in complying with any rules, such arrogance. Good and bad in all areas of life and politics, the people with true integrity are like hens teeth. I am forever grateful to Boris for getting done what the people voted for and I think despite initial hiccups as all countries had, he has handled Covid in a humane and efficient way. Goodness how we will pay for it but it’s helped so many people to keep jobs etc.

Those who peddled a lot of whinging and misinformation about the EU for forty years certainly have a lot to answer for.

Constant looking back helps no one which presumably means you shouldn't be mentioning Corbyn.

Sparkling

What a lot of whinging and misinformation about Brexit. It’s happened so deal with it. This constant looking back helps no one. I am just glad we didn’t have Corbin, almost jumping off a Cliff would have been better. As for looking out a video of what Dominic Cummings is supposed to have said, who is interested in the self serving man. He wasn’t interested in complying with any rules, such arrogance. Good and bad in all areas of life and politics, the people with true integrity are like hens teeth. I am forever grateful to Boris for getting done what the people voted for and I think despite initial hiccups as all countries had, he has handled Covid in a humane and efficient way. Goodness how we will pay for it but it’s helped so many people to keep jobs etc.

Hmmm! So nobody's supposed to look back? In that case, why are you going on about Corbyn? He's history and (could be wrong) not even a member of the Labour Party any more. Let's move on ...

Sparkling The reason for mentioning the Cummings video is that he is self-serving and was boasting. He was employed to deliver Brexit and that's exactly what he did - by knowing how to manipulate public opinion. It's a text book case of conning people. It wasn't the first time somebody had done that and it won't be the last. Maybe people would find it interesting to know how he operated.

As for looking out a video of what Dominic Cummings is supposed to have said, who is interested in the self serving man.

Well, the in the video he explains how Vote Leave took the public for a ride. Quite relevant really.

I'm roaring at the belief that Johnson 'handled Covid in a humane and efficient way' Thousands died unnecessarily because he continually delayed acting in a timely and efficient manner... History will not be kind to him...

All too often the blame for the inevitable consequences of Brexit is put on the EU, the French, Macron etc. That makes me cross.
Yes, Mamie, I put my hands up to being one who falls into that trap. Your voice of reason rightly pulls me up.

Looking back, however, if this is what we are supposed to do, the seeds of disharmony were apparent 6 or 7 years ago when Jean-Claude Juncker did little more than hurl insults at Cameron acting on behalf of Britain. I can't remember all his derogatory words, stuff like "it takes two to tango" but I am convinced he got many a British persons' backs up and things just escalated. If Cummings can manipulate public opinion, Juncker was equally responsible.
So, yes, the blame shouldn't be put on Macron or the French.

It wasn't aimed at you Ellianne. ?
I don't think Juncker was the most diplomatic of diplomats ?, but some of it is in the reporting.

Mamie

It wasn't aimed at you Ellianne. ?
I don't think Juncker was the most diplomatic of diplomats ?, but some of it is in the reporting.

As for avoiding France to go to Spain! We started it, arresting EU travellers to uk, even with interview appointments- and now

londonlovesbusiness.com/elderly-british-expats-arrested-in-spain-and-police-warn-you-have-15-days-to-leave-in-crackdown/

Those who have fully integrated the Spanish system on time will be fine, but there are 1000s of others who will not be. Many of the pensioners and elderly, who will find it very difficult and basically lose everything.

BTW they are not 'expats' they are immigrants.

Okay, I’ll bite.

Yes I agree with you those pensioners who live there permanently are immigrants. Or residents. The EU have their laws and we, as visitors, need to abide by them. Quite right too. A lot of people have kept themselves under the radar and the Spanish authorities, especially on the Costas, have looked the other way. Boom times, when the silver economy helped fuel the Spanish GDP.

Now all countries are tightening up. Governments want to be more aware of who is living in their midst (maybe terrorists) who is there who (post economic Covid disaster) ought to be paying taxes.

I think this is all right and proper.

It works both way though doesn’t it?

Those 2 Sikh men in Glasgow for instance, came to the UK illegally 10y ago. They lived under the radar. Worked in the local Sikh Centre. Didn’t speak English (after all that time to - so it’s not just the British living in enclaves of pie and chips with their Sangria) as they thanked the community through an interpreter for their support. Nice men. No doubt about that but the fact is, they didn’t go home when their visas expired all those years ago.

ID cards are coming. Most of Europe already have them, carry them and produce one if asked by the Police. Biometric checks on passports will flag up length of stay. Holiday sir or something more hmm?

Money (recouping of it post economic dive post Covid) will be the driving force of all this scrutiny.

I for one have no problem with it at all. 180 days +1 day and that will be the country you pax tax.

But as I say, it works BOTH ways! To be fair.

??