Birthing People - inclusive or offensive?

That's what I was missing Mollygo. Silly me.

My word you need to focus on the linguistic gymnastics to keep up.

If you want to rage about something why not rage about the intrusive gynaecological examinations women athletes have to endure?

trisher

I'm actually thinking about it Rosie51 and trying to measure all the things I have learned about women's sport and the problems involved. I can't see how this would help with the problem of women, who think they are women and so presumably would want to compete in the female class, subsequently having their sex challenged and being subjected to some sort of medical assessment. Unless you are suggesting that all women athletes are tested first. If so will all men be tested and what will happen to those who (as some currently do) have low testosterone levels? Will each of the three classes have a limit of testosterone?

Sex can be determined by blood test, so any female who wants to enter the female class can easily provide evidence to confirm their sex. This would be a one off test, unlike the random tests all sportspeople can be subjected to, to check for drug abuse. For most this evidence could be provided from a blood test taken when they first started training, so long before competitive sport. Anyone entering the open class would not need to provide any evidence of their sex or testosterone levels. They would of course be subject to the normal anti-doping tests. Why would men with low testosterone levels need different treatment to what they have now? Any male healthy enough to compete will still have a testosterone level above that of any female. Why presume all women would want to enter the female class, and not the open class?
My solution of a female class and an open class would definitely solve the question of transwomen being able to engage in competitive sports without controversy.

trisher

If you want to rage about something why not rage about the intrusive gynaecological examinations women athletes have to endure?

Would they have to endure them if not for men passing themselves off as women? If transwomen were actually women there would be no need for intrusive examinations.

This whole situation is really doing far more harm than good. I know that my friends and social contacts are not a representative sample of the world at large, but all the same, I guess that 90% of people would now happily accept men transitioning to women and living 'as women' (whatever that means). It is when women see their hard-won rights being eroded, their sex reduced to gender, their single sex spaces being removed, their places of safely being compromised etc that they get annoyed.

Women who were previously allies of transwomen are turning away from what they see as an encroaching threat, and this is entrenched by the 'take no prisoners/with us or against us'/no debate allowed' approach taken by many TRAs.

Terms like 'birthing people' are very probably seen by the vast majority of people as idiotic. As can be seen on a different thread, there are people who still think that you can't ask for black coffee, or describe a sheep or a beanbag as black without being racist. Shouldn't this be a cautionary tale for those hoping to impose a vocabulary onto others? All people hear is white noise and what they feel is resentment at those who set themselves up as 'more enlightened' telling them what to do.

Fortunately Trisher, you don't get to decide what I “rage” about. Because I'm not raging about invasive tests doesn't mean that I support the practice. However biological males openly entering women's sport is something I do feel strongly about. It seems so very unfair. It could even be seen as cheating in plain sight.

Would they have to endure them if not for men passing themselves off as women? If transwomen were actually women there would be no need for intrusive examinations
Well there may be "no need" but they have been going on for a long time. They are not only intrusive they are based on something called "the norm"for women and include illustrations of what the norm looks like. These are not trans women, they are people who have been called women from birth, who until someone points out their "unfemale" characteristics are simply women who are good at sport. They are then given a testosterone test and if it is too high physically examined. The really funny thing is there is no scientific basis to the testosterone test. No one has proved that natural testosterone influences development or performance in the same way artificial testosterone does. And some of the women's bodies don't use it anyway. Nothing to do with transwomen.
But it illustrates how women in sport have been mistreated and are still mistreated. The issue of transwomen may be important but it shouldn't be allowed to let this just slip into the background.

I'm not suggesting that it should slip into the background, just pointing out that if there were a genuinely level playing field (no pun intended!) there would be no need to check to ensure that men were not using the advantage that having a male body conveys, whatever gender preferences are involved.

trisher why is sex not checked by a blood test, if there is thought to be a need to check?

FarNorth I have no idea. I just know what the methods used just now are and it's testosterone they test for.
Any male healthy enough to compete will still have a testosterone level above that of any female.
That's actually wrong From Wiki
Sex verification is not conducted on athletes competing in the male category, and little data are available on their chromosomes or hormone profiles. However, a post-competition study of 693 elite athletes by Healy et al., published in 2014, found significant differences along many variables. ^^The authors found that:16.5% of men had low testosterone levels, whereas 13.7% of women had high levels with complete overlap between the sexes.
Using these data, Scientific American estimated that "almost 2 percent" of male competitors had testosterone levels in the typical female range.[37] The study authors also stated that average lean body mass differences might account for performance differences between sexes.

Doodledog I see no reason why campaigning for transrights can't exist alongside campaigning for women's rights. It's not a matter of one or the other.