Birthing People - inclusive or offensive?

The answer to this is not simply to abandon tests and to allow any man who wishes, to be in women's sport.
You really think it's fairer to sportswomen to do that?

People with DSDs are always female or male, although some physical characteristics may be different from the usual.
A person's sex can be verified with a blood test.
There is no need for verification if the person is a mature male - that person is not female.

People with DSDs are always female or male, although some physical characteristics may be different from the usual

Exactly! This is the drum I've been beating.

Interesting to note that in the Laurel Hubbard case we have all the privileges wrapped up in one....white privilege, rich privilege and male privilege that has taken the place of a poorer, woman of colour. Something to celebrate eh?

So do you think it is reasonable that someone who has been identified as female all of their lives should then because of their appearance be subjected to intrusive medical examinations and asked to use medical treatment they don't need except for the purpose of taking part in sport? Or suddenly be told they are not the sex they have always identified as? I was abolutely shocked by the physical examination involved, which includes intimacies I won't post on GN because I know they would upset some people but are deatailed in a link I posted earlier. I wondered why all sports women didn't take a stand and object to them. They seem to me to be the equivalent of sexual abuse but legitimised.
I think if we are looking at transwomen being admitted then the whole organisation and supervision needs to be revised.

asked to use medical treatment they don't need except for the purpose of taking part in sport so that would be so they're competing on a fair basis then? Nobody is compelled to take part in sports, if you choose to do them you accept certain restrictions. Funny how concern for the female athlete ousted by a born male who enjoys every privilege is completely absent.

Rosie51 I am actually concerned for all those taking part. I suppose with your restricted views on how a male body contrasts with a female one you won't want to worry about women who present with what are regarded as male characteristics, but only because of the narrow view of women taken by the authorities. I can't think of any other situation where the size of your breasts and clitoris would need to be examined and I'm amazed that anyone would regard this as just "accepting certain restrictions". No one I suppose is examining any men's penises?
The whole issue of regulating women's sports and the admission of transwomen needs looking at and some fair solution found which stops such intrusive examinations and develops as level a playing field as possible.
I suppose it is much easier to say "Ban transwomen" and leave the rest of a complicated problem to continue abusing and discriminating against women.

I absolutely don't support the degrading treatment that was detailed in that link trisher.
Biological sex can be ascertained without doing that, and no surgery is going to alter the biological sex.

Some males choose to take hormone drugs and that alters some of their physical characteristics.
They are not females.

The case of females with DSDs is completely different from that of males who claim to be women.

The long running issue of people with DSD, distressing though it is, is deflecting from the issue of should transwomen (men) compete along side biological women. Conditions such as DSD are complex and rare and are not the same as being transgender.

The publicity around Laurel Hubbard has exposed what happens when reality meets ideology. We are told that now Hubbard is a woman, she will have no advantages over the other women. But Hubbard is one of those instances where we see that there are times when sex really matters. Its interesting that athletes with DSD are subject to tests to prove their sex but if a man declares himself to be a woman, we take his word for it.

Maybe we should re-examine why male and female sports were separated in the first place.

trisher

Rosie51 I am actually concerned for all those taking part. I suppose with your restricted views on how a male body contrasts with a female one you won't want to worry about women who present with what are regarded as male characteristics, but only because of the narrow view of women taken by the authorities. I can't think of any other situation where the size of your breasts and clitoris would need to be examined and I'm amazed that anyone would regard this as just "accepting certain restrictions". No one I suppose is examining any men's penises?
The whole issue of regulating women's sports and the admission of transwomen needs looking at and some fair solution found which stops such intrusive examinations and develops as level a playing field as possible.
I suppose it is much easier to say "Ban transwomen" and leave the rest of a complicated problem to continue abusing and discriminating against women.

Oh for goodness sake trisher nobody is saying ban transwomen, just let them compete in their sex based class. While you keep dragging people with DSDs into it you do transwomen and them no favours. I've finally ploughed through that blog link you gave.. well anyone who continuously uses sex and gender interchangeably obviously lacks scientific discrimination. May I suggest you listen to The Moral Maze from last night and especially the witness of Debbie Hayton a transwoman in favour of fairness? I'm more than happy to share her narrow views on the two sexes and the difference between male and female bodies. There is absolutely no need for the invasive physical tests you refer to, and I absolutely would not support those methods, science can determine sex by scientific analysis. Are these methods used nowadays, I can't believe they are, please link to an official source to verify this. This is why the term intersex is offensive and inaccurate. There are two sexes, every single human on this earth past, present and future falls into one or the other. A woman who outwardly has ambiguous external sex characteristics can easily be assigned to her correct sex by scientific analysis.
Out of interest and for balance can you please list all the times a transman has been able to take a competitive sport place from a natal male? It must happen because you don't believe the adult male body has any great advantage physically over the female born body.

Rosie51 As far as I know the practice of physically examining women when they fail testosterone tests still continues. More about the testing here web.archive.org/web/20160628124045/http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html
It was cerainly operating in 2016. The IAAF details among its experts gynaecologists who are there to do the deed I would think.
Some medical organisations are advising doctors not to take part in the tests which they consider un-scientific.
Interestingly some sportsmen have low testosterone levels which would in theory qualify them to take part in women's sports.
There's a long and complicated history here and things dont seem to be improving en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

So if you had someone who had lived all her life as a woman, who failed the sex test where could she then compete? In the trans events, in the mens events?

Could you define ‘lived all her life as a woman’ please. Do you mean a female, born a female? Or a male, identifying as a woman from however young an age, who has continued to grow and develop as a male, despite the self id?

petunia

The long running issue of people with DSD, distressing though it is, is deflecting from the issue of should transwomen (men) compete along side biological women. Conditions such as DSD are complex and rare and are not the same as being transgender.

The publicity around Laurel Hubbard has exposed what happens when reality meets ideology. We are told that now Hubbard is a woman, she will have no advantages over the other women. But Hubbard is one of those instances where we see that there are times when sex really matters. Its interesting that athletes with DSD are subject to tests to prove their sex but if a man declares himself to be a woman, we take his word for it.

Maybe we should re-examine why male and female sports were separated in the first place.

The problem is that there seem to be more people with DSD participating in high level sports than are usually found in any section of society. Having lived as women, they are challenged because of their physical appearance and if they fail must medicate themselves before they can participate again. Some say physical differences are found in every area and the only regulated one is sex.

I’m with you Rosie 51- ticking All the privilege boxes what a hollow triumph for trans women and a complete disregard of the Olympic ethos and values - “ Joy of Effort, Fair Play, Respect for Others; pursuit of excellence; and balance between body, will and mind.

Mollygo

Could you define ‘lived all her life as a woman’ please. Do you mean a female, born a female? Or a male, identifying as a woman from however young an age, who has continued to grow and develop as a male, despite the self id?

I mean people who have lived as females all their lives Mollygo who are sometimes, taller than most women and/or are flat chested and broadshouldered. They have been subjected to testing which has decided they are male. One athlete was driven to attempt suicide after this happened

Then that’s the fault of the examiners.

It has little to do with the current unfairness of pseudo women competing in races where they have an advantage not related to effort and training.
Possibly the fairest way would be for them to run in the same races, but for there to be two sets of medals: gold silver and bronze for the female competitors, and gold silver and bronze medals for those who are trans women. That would actually benefit females as they would have a ‘pace maker’ to challenge them without actually having to beat someone who is racing with an unfair advantage.
Or transwomen can race with the men and transmen can race with the women. I wonder how many competitors there would be under those rules.
Tests should only involve performance enhancing drugs - etc, though I guess there would still be attempts to cheat.

So if you had someone who had lived all her life as a woman, who failed the sex test where could she then compete? In the trans events, in the mens events?

Either would be fine, but I'd assume the open class which is what I'd rename the mens class. Women of female sex could also choose to compete in this open class if they wished, as being male sex, having gone through a male puberty, has absolutely no advantage over those who go through a female puberty according to some. If this open class is not suitable why not?
An open class and a female class, that's fair to everybody. Laurel Hubbard could take part in the open class without any controversy.

The athlete who had lived her entire life as a woman, but failed the sex test would be able to carry on living as a woman and continue to compete in sporting events.

trisher

Mollygo

Could you define ‘lived all her life as a woman’ please. Do you mean a female, born a female? Or a male, identifying as a woman from however young an age, who has continued to grow and develop as a male, despite the self id?

I mean people who have lived as females all their lives Mollygo who are sometimes, taller than most women and/or are flat chested and broadshouldered. They have been subjected to testing which has decided they are male. One athlete was driven to attempt suicide after this happened

Who was that athlete, Trisher? Did she have extremely high testosterone levels then?

Santhi Soundarajan an Indian athlete attempted suicide, Dutee Chand and Caster Semenya were both tested and deemed male.
The science the test is based on is very dodgy anyway. There is no proof that naturally produced testosterone improves performance.

trisher you didn't respond to my suggestion for two classifications for competitive sport, female sex and open. Do you not agree it would remove all controversy as it would allow transwomen and anyone with a DSD that excluded them from the female class to compete in competitive sport? If you don't agree I'd be very interested in your reasons why not.

I'm actually thinking about it Rosie51 and trying to measure all the things I have learned about women's sport and the problems involved. I can't see how this would help with the problem of women, who think they are women and so presumably would want to compete in the female class, subsequently having their sex challenged and being subjected to some sort of medical assessment. Unless you are suggesting that all women athletes are tested first. If so will all men be tested and what will happen to those who (as some currently do) have low testosterone levels? Will each of the three classes have a limit of testosterone?

Sorry two classes.

“the problem of women, who think they are women and so presumably would want to compete in the female class “.

Trisher? Really? Surely a woman who thinks she's a woman and wants to compete in a woman's race is a woman? Maybe I'm missing something.

Batting backwards and forwards about masculine looking women and people with DSD does not deflect from the fact that there appears to be around 8 or 9 transwomen hoping to compete in the Olympics this time (although very recently I read that CeCe Telfer has not been selected). Potentially that's 9 women not selected. That's 9 women pushed down the medal tables. 9 women who have lived and breathed their sport. Having made sacrifices and have trained hard. Some may be at the peak of their profession with their sights set on a medal to finish their career. That's 9 women pushed aside to allow a biological male to take a place.

Hubbard, having had his career as a man, gets a second bite of the cherry while a young woman was not selected. Even if Hubbard doesn't get a medal, a young woman (Kuinini Manumua)has lost the chance of competing in her first Olympic games.

Why is it OK to insist that a transwoman gets to follow their dreams, in Hubbard's case twice, yet a woman is expected to give up on hers?

Because he’s a man Petunia.

petunia if you really want to join the discussion and not just keep making the same point I suggest you read some of the links posted and investigate more fully. There are women who have always thought of themselves as women who compete in women's events . When they win medals their physaical appearance is brought to the attention of the judges and they are subjected to intrusive tests and sometimes are then designated as male or told they are disqualified from women's sport.
Women's sport as a whole has a very unsavoury history of judging who can take part. The transwoman issue is interesting in that it is being done at the same time as women are still being subjected to the same judgements.
Women's sport seems to be stuck somewhere in the past at least as far as treating women goes.