Occasionally, just occasionally ...

I would like Police, Nurses, Social Workers to be trained at work not through Degree Courses.

If we were to go down that route, what about teachers? Primary school teachers in particular used to take a two year Teaching Certificate.

Accountants, doctors, lawyers could all learn on the job and use Google.

Degree nurses are trained in the hospitals. They do some of their training, such as pharmacology, at the university but much of it is on the job.
The pharmacology part of the degree my daughter did saved a life as she realised that the doctor had wrongly prescribed and was giving the patient ten times the dose she should have had. The patient was frail and the dose would have killed her. She checked with the consultant, who told her she was right and the dose was far too high.
My point is that degree nurses have extra skills which can be important. My daughter is now an oncology nurse with specialist knowledge thanks to her degree.

Doodledog

I don't think that all police officers need degrees, but I do wish the inverted snobbery would stop.

It's not either so-called 'common sense' OR a degree. People can have both, but so often the two things are set in opposition.

Probably like most people, I know nothing of expressive dance degrees; but I assume that (as well skills such as research, discipline, determination and independence) they require the ability to 'read' the body language of others, which would be useful in a night-time brawl.

Also, whereas not all graduates have 'common sense', it's not a given that non-graduates do have it, surely? Are all ex-soldiers necessarily ideal police material? It's just such lazy thinking.

Hmm.. read body languages?! A roaring drunk eejit running at you with fists clenched? What does that tell you? There's no actual time to "read body language" the uniform is no longer any deterrent at ALL in fact it makes for a visible target! Have graduates by all means for the jobs requiring their skills but they must also be capable of completing 2years probation trudging and wedging(at the sh***y end of the stick) as well.troops like to know that bosses actually KNOW what it's like at ground level and not to have just read it in an online course....says my DH , a retired cop of 30 years in large inner city force.....also our #1 DS who is still in the job.

Gabrielle56

Doodledog

I don't think that all police officers need degrees, but I do wish the inverted snobbery would stop.

It's not either so-called 'common sense' OR a degree. People can have both, but so often the two things are set in opposition.

Probably like most people, I know nothing of expressive dance degrees; but I assume that (as well skills such as research, discipline, determination and independence) they require the ability to 'read' the body language of others, which would be useful in a night-time brawl.

Also, whereas not all graduates have 'common sense', it's not a given that non-graduates do have it, surely? Are all ex-soldiers necessarily ideal police material? It's just such lazy thinking.

Hmm.. read body languages?! A roaring drunk eejit running at you with fists clenched? What does that tell you? There's no actual time to "read body language" the uniform is no longer any deterrent at ALL in fact it makes for a visible target! Have graduates by all means for the jobs requiring their skills but they must also be capable of completing 2years probation trudging and wedging(at the sh***y end of the stick) as well.troops like to know that bosses actually KNOW what it's like at ground level and not to have just read it in an online course....says my DH , a retired cop of 30 years in large inner city force.....also our #1 DS who is still in the job.

Where does it say "ALL" ? on any of these groups? At least ex military are used to orders and how to act on them.graduates will often try to argue the toss then bleat about bullying when they're told to just do as their told!

Degree nurses are trained in the hospitals. They do some of their training, such as pharmacology, at the university but much of it is on the job.
The pharmacology part of the degree my daughter did saved a life as she realised that the doctor had wrongly prescribed and was giving the patient ten times the dose she should have had.

I agree, AGAA4, nursing is not just bed pans and taking temperatures.

I fully agree Callestan,
Hospitals used to have their own in- house schools of nursing then some idiot suggested nurses should all go to university
the end result to that was many nurses think wiping someone’s behind is not for them to do they are “too posh to deal with poo” the HCAs can do that. In my 42 years working in the NHS things have not always changed for the better. I started as a cadet nurse then student nurse for three years then a junior staff nurse for two years then staff nurse / senior staff nurse then ward sister 10 years then Midwife / senior Midwife. Now a person can become a midwife within 18 months. The HCAs do most of the hands-on care in general nursing for the lowest pay.

I once had a newly qualified teacher shadow me with a view to taking on the class I was then teaching . She had expressive dance as her main subject at college. I had to observe her taking a Literacy lesson about adverbs. It was clear that she didn’t know the difference between adverbs and adjectives. During feedback I pointed this out. “ Oh, they’re the same thing ... aren’t they ?” I would rather that this strong , athletic and physically coordinated girl had joined the police- where she could do less harm .

I used to work in police admin, don't know if its changed but graduate entrants back then still had to pass probation (2 years) and if they wanted promotion they still had to pass first their sergeants exam and then their inspectors exam.

I worked with a few officers who had been in the forces, they varied as much as any of the other officers.

Midwifebi6

I fully agree Callestan,
Hospitals used to have their own in- house schools of nursing then some idiot suggested nurses should all go to university
the end result to that was many nurses think wiping someone’s behind is not for them to do they are “too posh to deal with poo” the HCAs can do that. In my 42 years working in the NHS things have not always changed for the better. I started as a cadet nurse then student nurse for three years then a junior staff nurse for two years then staff nurse / senior staff nurse then ward sister 10 years then Midwife / senior Midwife. Now a person can become a midwife within 18 months. The HCAs do most of the hands-on care in general nursing for the lowest pay.

One of mine is a nurse and horror of horrors did a degree. It was linked to the local uni but all their classes were at the hospital, their placements were all in NHS settings.

My DIL has recently qualified as a midwife, it took 3 years and I understand that is standard. I think the only way you could do it in shorter time is if you are already a qualified nurse so I think your post is misleading.

How long did it take you to qualify as a midwife as I believe it was always a shorter course for a qualified nurse.

tictacnana your post reminded me that I was supervising my 5-yr old DGC's school work during lockdown and they had a lesson on adverbs. The teacher was actually describing adjectives. I was all set to contact the school but AC firmly and sensibly stopped me by pointing out that it wouldn't do DGC any harm at all at that age. I really don't think your student could do harm by not knowing the difference between an adjective and an adverb, especially as you pointed it out. After all, isn't education about learning as well as teaching? The story of Dame Gillian Lynne shows that children need dancers as teachers too, indeed people with many different skills and talents.

At least ex military are used to orders and how to act on them.graduates will often try to argue the toss then bleat about bullying when they're told to just do as their told!
Graduates will have been taught not to make sweeping statements based on generalisations like that?.

I don't think that anyone is saying that police officers should all be graduates - I for one definitely said that I don't think this. What people are saying is that there is nothing to be gained by writing off people with degrees, and that the idea that all soldiers are more suitable than all graduates is nonsense. Some will be, and others won't (in both groups).

Can I say at this point that degrees are actually becoming less popular amongst A level students. My daughter was not alone in changing her mind in declining her place in uni 6 years ago. We tried to convince her to defer but her attitude was she new the course wasn’t going to lead to a career that she would need it for. She was going to do psychology. She is well qualified now in her chosen career and earning well.
This has become more and more of a trend locally and the university’s are fighting hard to fill those places.

I worked with very intelligent people all with degrees and most had PHDs all brilliant in their chosen field but not an ounce of common sense between them.

What exactly do you mean by common sense?

Do people without degrees have it? How can you tell?

I can see their point! However, having had a good education and obtaining a good qualification shows you have discipline, the ability to listen, which in turn helps develop problem solving skills. All very relevant to being a police officer.

My husband was a trained dancer, admittedly not a degree but danced in top theatres as a teenager. His dance teacher was horrified when he decided to join the police. He received commendations for his work, arrested more than one murderer and was promoted several times. His dancing didn't seem any sort of handicap.

I couldn't run the length of myself but I have a number of degrees in law and am a deeply suspicious and cynical individual. Please allow me to do direct entry to CID. I would love to be a detective as long as you can get some young fit bloke to do the chasing of the actual suspects for me. I can ask pointed questions in a super nasty way.

I'm pretty sure the Met started doing direct entry to CID, not sure if other forces do it.

I'm not sure what changed, when I was in police admin most officers seemed to want to get into CID but apparently it isn't popular now.