"gesture politics"

It goes much further back than that, when those showing solidarity with those suffering racial abuse they are adopting a pose used in a picture by abolitionists during the 18-19 century.
It shows a manacled slave on one knee.

I guess the unpleasant comment refers to Priti Patel.

JenniferEccles

I guess the unpleasant comment refers to Priti Patel.

oh well, at least I only make unpleasant comments about unpleasant people - other people are much more guilty of incitement of her kind of of rhetoric and behaviour which is much more deeply unpleasant

JenniferEccles

I guess the unpleasant comment refers to Priti Patel.

Oh I agree with Jane judge.

Racist bullies are never popular in my opinion.

also Jennifer's only post on this thread was to make a pop at me, duly noted Jennifer. I don't think I am the unpleasant one

The origin of the gesture is obscure for the majority of the population. Too them it is associated with a knee on the neck which ended Floyd’s life.

Esspee

The origin of the gesture is obscure for the majority of the population. Too them it is associated with a knee on the neck which ended Floyd’s life.

Then they are wrong aren’t they?

This is the image that the 'taking the knee' gesture references.

It is the abolitionist 'am I not a man and a brother' symbol, which goes back to at least 1788, when medallions showing the image were sent to Benjamin Franklin.

Clearly, there are resonances with the manner of the murder of George Floyd; but the image itself (and the gesture of taking the knee) is not new.

Doodledog

This is the image that the 'taking the knee' gesture references.

It is the abolitionist 'am I not a man and a brother' symbol, which goes back to at least 1788, when medallions showing the image were sent to Benjamin Franklin.

Clearly, there are resonances with the manner of the murder of George Floyd; but the image itself (and the gesture of taking the knee) is not new.

That’s what I was talking about! Where did you see it?

Surely whatever the majority of the population giving recognition to one or both is fine?
Plus, I'm fairly sure the majority of the population are able to google, so they would know what it represents.

People find all protest uncomfortable and generally find things to disagree with in terms of method of protest. Its happened to nearly every group including gay rights, womens suffrage etc etc.

Whitewavemark2

It goes back even further than that.

But the focus should not be on the action.

The focus should be on the reason for the action.

So well put. The racism in football has been there for so long - and so many initiatives which have failed.
Anyone found guilty of any sort of racist tweet, comment, etc should be banned for life from all future football matches.
Think the young England team have been an inspiration, in many ways, and wonderful role models for our young people.So good to see so many people 'taking the knee' in Manchester in support of Marcus Rashford.

It’s online, Whitewavemark2. I googled ‘Am I not a man and a brother’ to find the image.

Thanks. I only remembered it from my studies. I expect it is in one of my books somewhere. I think that the original showed a slave master as well, but I may be thinking of something else.

There is also a statue of a kneeling slave in supplication to Lincoln. Can’t remember where that is. Probably on google somewhere.

Yesterday I visited a NT property which had a statue of a female slave in shackles - it was very objectified (the woman has very pert bosoms and a tiny waist with a loin cloth tied provocatively ) and as the NT stated makes one feel very uncomfortable. It was placed opposite a white female naked classic statue and the difference is stark.

MissAdventure

It doesn't matter if he was akin to Jack the Ripper, though.
He was murdered by police.

My thoughts too (Jack the Ripper a bit extreme). It's not glorifying George Floyd, it's deploring his murder which was deplorable.

Its up to the individual, no one should be made to feel guilty if they don’t take the knee. I don’t like demonstrations, only peaceful ones, it’s how you treat people and live your life that counts.

Just so, and by the same token those who choose to take the knee should be free to do so.
Because neither option actually affects anyone else.

Eloethan yes, clapping for the NHS was a gesture of course, although it seemed to be very appreciated at the time by NHS, and taking the knee is also a gesture which I think was a good idea by the England team ( presumably the Welsh and Scottish teams did the same?) as they were playing so many different countries where the fans are very racist to black players. There comes a time when clapping for the NHS and taking the knee ( as gestures, which is what they are) should naturally come to an end.The point has been made, over and over again.
I also think the NHS frontline workers ( not those in offices) should have had a much better percentage payrise and that the campaign to ‘kick out racism’ should take over as a concrete practical action.

Yes I agree Allsorts. Action and how you treat people is far more effective than gestures.

I think that the original showed a slave master as well, but I may be thinking of something else.
I think you might be (thinking of something else). That’s the only one I’ve seen, although I’ve seen the image in numerous forms (eg on medallions, in statuette form and so on) over the years.

lemongrove

Eloethan yes, clapping for the NHS was a gesture of course, although it seemed to be very appreciated at the time by NHS, and taking the knee is also a gesture which I think was a good idea by the England team ( presumably the Welsh and Scottish teams did the same?) as they were playing so many different countries where the fans are very racist to black players. There comes a time when clapping for the NHS and taking the knee ( as gestures, which is what they are) should naturally come to an end.The point has been made, over and over again.
I also think the NHS frontline workers ( not those in offices) should have had a much better percentage payrise and that the campaign to ‘kick out racism’ should take over as a concrete practical action.

And the point has been made over and over again that it is not for us to make that decision. If the young men want to take the knee until they are old they are absolutely entitled to do so.

The abuse they suffer is happening in the U.K.

The campaign “kick out racism” supports and entirely approves the young men’s action. They suffer the abuse, they are entitled to decide what action to take and when to end it.

Yes, I agree, they can take the knee until the day they stop playing football if they want to ( and if the manager and owners agree it).... but I doubt they will do that.
In any case, it’s my opinion that it will soon have a natural end, not a command from me to the team.

Taking the knee doesn't mean someone no longer treats people well.
Of course how you treat people is the most important thing, but there are variations possible.

I think there are people who totally back the drive to end racism that can find taking the knee uncomfortable.

For some, it is associated with Feudalism. My MIL worked in service and was expected to 'know her place' - the accepted face of class-division that had its roots in Feudalism. There are those that argue that we are in danger of returning to such times in some parts of the world.

www.researchgate.net/post/Is-the-feudal-era-returning-And-what-can-we-do-about-it

Or indeed that it is re-emerging in the name of neo-feudalism:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-feudalism

There are Catholics who object to it as they see it as similar to genuflection, something reserved for humility before God, not man.

I have no wish to prevent anyone protesting however they like, but please let's not assume that anyone who feels uncomfortable with the nature of the gesture does so purely for racist reasons. Nobody owns the gesture, since it has been used during history by different groups to mean different things, but people who have already ascribed one meaning to it will have a visceral reaction to the gesture itself.

Since we all want equality for all, a gesture which suggests servility or religious humility to some might not be universally effective. Of course, it is the right of those who use it to do so, but at the end of the day we all want equality not more division. I've seen several people suggest that teams standing arms linked would give an unmistakable message of unity. I'm not interested in telling others what to do, but we can at least look at why the message might be failing some.

I agree with the action in taking the knee but can't understand why more isn't being done to make a positive change.