The Anger of Parliament (temporary)

Whitewavemark2

Blimey

Sky report

“This is astounding. While Taliban advanced on the capital, two days before Kaboul fell, the Afghan foreign minister was desperately trying to contact Raab "to get the ball rolling on evacuations".

Is that the phone call 'that wouldn't have made any difference' according to some posters?

Blimey

Sky report

“This is astounding. While Taliban advanced on the capital, two days before Kaboul fell, the Afghan foreign minister was desperately trying to contact Raab "to get the ball rolling on evacuations".

Jaberwok I don’t know where your information is coming from. Biden had two aneurysms in 1988 (33 years ago), and has had atrial fibrillation since 2003 without symptoms. He is clearly in possession of his marbles, even though his actions are wrong in my opinion.
Kamala Harris is fully engaged in the Afghan crisis, not without controversy.
www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-08-18/kamala-harris-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan

700 years?!
Am old...but not that old.
Yes, there has been ‘talk of it’ MaizieD but I was questioning the reality of it.Although many Americans have ancestry from here and may feel some fondness, the various administrations
( who have varied wildly in their support for the UK) will always do the hard nosed thing and what’s good for the US.

lemongrove

I don’t think there has ever really been a special relationship wwm2
Certain Presidents are friendlier than others towards us but that’s about it.
It took Pearl Harbour to get them into the last time we really needed their help.
Reagan was the best one ( towards us) in recent times.

If you don't think that there has ever been a 'special relationship' *lemon, where have you been for the last 700 years?

There have constant, constant references to the UK/US 'special relationship' throughout my entire lifetime. Granted it's probably been more rhetorical than practical but one tangible aspect has been the fact that the UK has acted as an intermediary between the US and the EU. Gone now, of course.

The events in Afghanistan are a reminder of how foolish we are to depend on NATO for security and how foolish we are to turn away from Europe if the US is reverting to isolationism.

What is far more serious than a phone call is the state of health of the most powerful man on earth namely President Biden who seems to get more confused by the hour. Not only extremely worrying but potentially catastrophic. Where is the Vice President? No one has seen her in public for over a week. Apparently the President has had two brain aneurysms and has an ongoing heart condition. What on earth possessed the Democrats to choose an obviously sick elderly man to stand for this monumentally important job. The Republicans too,come to that,can neither party find someone just a tad younger and in good shape?

We all understand the need for a holiday. We all understand that, in some circumstances, working from home is at least as good as working from the office. However, this fast-moving crisis, where the lives of many others were at risk was not one of those. He, the PM and the other ministers did not ensure they were in the best place to deal with a known, upcoming emergency.

Sadly, we have a government that appears to be unable to live up to the expected standards. I don't expect Raab to apologise; I expect him, and hopefully, at some point this government, to resign.

As we have previously talked about, being on holiday doesn’t mean away from the phone and laptop.
I doubt that he had time for much relaxing, but the holiday was booked for him and his family, and even Ministers are allowed time off now and again. Why speculate on what it cost? Or who was paying for it.
Apologising for a ‘mistake’ is one thing and should be done where a mistake was made, but what exactly would you have him apologise for?
He was in contact with his office.

Lord Carrington resigned over the Falklands as that was wholly our (his) responsibility this fiasco is not.
Jabberwok [Fri 20-Aug-21 15:21:58]

The above is yet another fallacious argument. Whatever happens from the outside, the UK Government cannot resile from its responsibility. There is no logical argument that says it may behave irresponsibly because some outside agent has altered circumstances. The Government always remains in the same position. Any Government is in power to do the best it can. Its actions should be both for the country and all those it has promised to protect, under all circumstances.

I cannot see how you think it is excusable that most of the ministers and the PM, in posts in charge of the expected catastrophe, should be excused for the gross misconduct of going on holiday knowing this was about to happen.

You either seem not to understand or accept is that this discussion is about the behaviour of this Government and its ministers. That is seen by both voters and MPs alike as appalling and without precedent.

GrannyGravy13

I have read several reports of how long Mr.Raab was out of the U.K. they all seem to agree it was 36 hours.

You mean he left on holiday when we all knew Kabul was likely to fall imminently? That doesn't show very good judgement.

He came home on the 16th, so 36 hours meant he must have left on the 14th, which is the day that the Taliban took Mazar-e-Sharif and started to approach Kabul. Not good judgement at all by Mr Raab.

Welshwife

Maybe not owning up to things comes from their school days - was there corporal punishment if they made an error of judgement?
I have seen two separate posts on Twitter saying Raab's family holiday on Crete cost £42k - I find that unbelievable - has anyone else seen a report about it?
It is the lying - by anyone- that I cannot stand. Admit an error of judgement or whatever you like to call it but own up - how can we teach children to be honest when they see men in high places lying.

Yes I have seen the suggestion of the cost. If it is true, I wonder who is paying for it and what they are expecting in return?

I have read several reports of how long Mr.Raab was out of the U.K. they all seem to agree it was 36 hours.

None of this alters the fact that many M.P.s were very angry indeed. I don't seem to remember much support for them , unlike most P.M's questions. What do they know that we don't ? Quite a lot I should think.
Like other posters I am fed up with the constant buck passing and excuses being made. If only our "leaders " had the integrity to stand up, be counted and admit when they had made a mistake .At least Hancock resigned.

Maybe not owning up to things comes from their school days - was there corporal punishment if they made an error of judgement?
I have seen two separate posts on Twitter saying Raab's family holiday on Crete cost £42k - I find that unbelievable - has anyone else seen a report about it?
It is the lying - by anyone- that I cannot stand. Admit an error of judgement or whatever you like to call it but own up - how can we teach children to be honest when they see men in high places lying.

I guess it comes down to the fact that so many of us don't trust him, and he holds one of the Great Offices of State. Can you imagine us wondering if any of the previous Foreign Secretaries was skiving? (Johnson excluded, obviously) Margaret Beckett, John Major, Malcom Rifkind...I might not have agreed with all their policies but I didn't think they would have been on their hols during times of national crisis. They all have more honour.

rosie1959

I am more amazed that some know exactly what Raab did or didn’t do Were they there

The answer to your question is yes. The FO have reported along with eye witnesses at the hotel in which he was staying.

The pressure is growing for him to resign.

I am more amazed that some know exactly what Raab did or didn’t do Were they there

The Government will close ranks and support Raab. It's what they do.

I just think its a pity that our current crop of ministers would rather find excuses than 'fess up to things, and usually after they've tried to pretend that there wasn't a problem in the first place.

Lord Carrington resigned over the Falklands as that was wholly our (his) responsibility this fiasco is not.
Yes the 'special relationship ' was ok under President Reagan, except for the invasion of Grenada without prior warning to the UK ! Bearing in mind the Queen was still head of state this clearly caused a furore. Mrs Thatcher was incandescent with rage according to all reports. As you say Lemon, I think, even if this ever existed except perhaps in the imagination , it is now a bit paper thin particularly these days.

Tell you what, you can have our foreign minister. Not exactly someone to inspire confidence,either. Think school prefect.

Entitlement - it’s part of their DNA

I think that it’s an approach that this government are relying on to get out of sticky situations. It’s never their fault. Any repercussions of Brexit are the EU’s fault; people coming here in dinghies are because the French aren’t doing their duty; I couldn’t phone the Afghan minister because he was so busy; Biden wouldn’t take my call; we couldn’t do anything about Afghanistan because we were the junior partner.

It used to be that the ministers of this country took responsibility for things in which they were involved. If things were difficult, they tried to resolve things and acted as leaders, not as some little guy that just shrugs his shoulders and says there was nothing they could do. Remember when Carrington resigned over the Falklands? Currie over the eggs, of all things? It used to be that the world expected the UK to take the lead and show others how to behave. Not any more, not with this Government.

Raab does have a problem with his insistence that he was working tirelessly as Kabul fell.

Witnesses at the hotel have quickly refuted rabbis claim saying that he spent the day playing paddle tennis and lounging.

I don’t think there has ever really been a special relationship wwm2
Certain Presidents are friendlier than others towards us but that’s about it.
It took Pearl Harbour to get them into the last time we really needed their help.
Reagan was the best one ( towards us) in recent times.