Biological men in woman only spaces

The law gives exemptions Pippa. That is what has happened to be honest in terms of changing rooms many businesses tried mixed sex in terms of changing rooms and very quietly reverted to single sex because of the incidents that occurred.

PippaZ

Galaxy

Because people are saying that transwomen need to be in womens spaces to be safe. That implies that Male spaces are dangerous. But when we point that out as one of the reasons for sex segregation we are then told we are calling men predators. It cant be both Pippa.
It's also to do with saying any sex can be a predator, and yes of course they can, but men and women commit crimes in very different ways. We cant pretend that's not a reality.

What is that in reply to, please? I'm afraid I can't make sense of it.

Ha ha that reply is so funny because Galaxy's post hits it
full on, well done

As I understand it, the case of the spa in America was in California, which has brought in self identification. Not all of the US has done the same, so I don't think it is quite accurate to state that it was one case in the whole of America.

As regards who does what in public lavatories, they have in the past (obviously when I was younger) been a place to get away from men who didn't seem to want to take no for an answer.

Public toilets are the least secure places. There are no emergency exits, you can't lock the main door in, they have thick walls and the cubicles are very often easy to climb over.

I had an incident when I was 15 where a boy followed me in at a campsite and I was luckily able to push past him and run.

The signs on the door aren't magic.

I have never seen a public toilet as a safe place to hide

Public toilets in venues such as clubs, pubs dance suites etc have been a place for females to gather for respite from the male gaze or persistence. I don't think anybody would regard a public toilet in a park for example as a place of safety.

Rosie I've never made that connection in my mind, a quieter place to talk and fix your makeup maybe. If toilets are safe places to be appreciated and revered as such then society is more broken than I thought.

It's a toilet.

Sorry, I thought it must be obvious that I was talking about lavatories in discos rather than public parks.
I think it is becoming obvious that women are going to have to get used to losing out, the drive for self identification is relentless.
Any time a woman expresses a wish to keep their tiny little bits of what feels like privacy, they are told they are wrong.

I am not sure Ilovecheese, I hold out a bit of hope, the recent court cases have mostly been in the favour of women, although obviously the reversal of the Keira Bell judgement was a blow although not an unexpected one to be honest. I didnt for one minute think Keira would win the first case so that surprised me. Women have moved the debate on from 'no debate' and there is no going back on that.

Remember the outcry about breastfeeding mums being told to feed their babies in the toilet?

That sort of thinking is taking us backwards not forwards.

I can't understand how relegating any woman to the toilet to feel safe is possibly ever a good thing. It's just not logical to me

We should be safe everywhere

I remember one particular case where a breastfeeding woman was shouted at by another woman because her husband kept looking at her.

She didn't have a breastfeeding problem, she had a husband problem but she couldn't see it.

We don't have a trans problem we have a problem with feeling safe where the solution is not a toilet

Well I am sure you saying that will make it so. I wish women didn't need domestic violence refuges for example, my saying that doesnt make the need for them vanish.

The assumption by some posters, that only those who support trans rights over females rights to safe spaces, know any trans, beautiful people or not is quite strange.
Where do they think we live?
I only know a few of either gender, and found out about 2 of them by accident. It made no difference. The few that I do know, are not happy about all the furore being raised by a minority of trans- mostly transwomen. They feel it threatens their future and their safety and they understand my concern about safe spaces for females.
These are people who dress, and more importantly for them, behave as the gender they aspire to be rather than making it obvious that they are not.
Just to save me the hassle of Google, VioletSky, please can you tell me where to find the evidence of “hundreds of thousands” 7:55 today.

No comparison between a refuge and a toilet, that's the point I'm trying to make.

I lived in a refuge for a while due to abuse at home, granted that abuse was done by a woman.

A refuge is not a public space.

Admittance is granted to those most in need of help and space is very limited. Staff stayed on site, each room was secure, each room had emergency buttons. There were security cameras. Everything possible was done to give safety to those who needed it.

I would not have wanted a trans woman turned away if she needed help but I know that's not my decision to make.

Mollygo from the government equalities office, the estimate is between 200,000 and 500,000 in the UK

I think that's the point we are making violet, toilets in my view are relatively easy to solve, it's the other things refuges, prisons, crime statistics, and on and on. Oh and sport. I dont want anyone turned away, some men experience domestic violence, they need support, but not in a womans refuge.

BlueRuby, why does this same subject keep turning up, ad nauseam on GN - like a bad penny.

At risk of repeating myself (yet again) nothing has changed - at all - has it? There is no increased danger.

There has always been the possibility of men, dressed as women, in loos and changing rooms.

Nobody ever checks inside your underwear to make sure that you're female - do they?

I know we are going around in circles but, who here is honestly equipped to say that a woman cannot become a man and vice versa.

A woman has already given birth with a transplanted womb. How long until that level of change is available to trans people. How long until elements of their own dna can be used to grow and change their genitalia completely to become biologically male or female. My guess would be, not that long at all.

I'm just a mum of 5 and I don't have time to go get myself a medical degree and do my own research before it's time to retire so I trust that when research done scientifically with no bases in feelings, shows that gender is not as definable as we first thought, change is coming.

I'll leave it there

VioletSky

Public toilets are the least secure places. There are no emergency exits, you can't lock the main door in, they have thick walls and the cubicles are very often easy to climb over.

I had an incident when I was 15 where a boy followed me in at a campsite and I was luckily able to push past him and run.

The signs on the door aren't magic.

I have never seen a public toilet as a safe place to hide

Good point VioletSky. They often end up pretty gross to. I can't remember the last time I used one other than in a shop or supermarket.

My ex husband is trans and now living as a woman and considering that, as you say, he socialised as a man, fathered 6 children , his job could be classed as male and the motor sport that he competed in internationally is still about 90% male, I can assure you that he was more bothered about actually going to the toilet rather than attacking another female if using the female toilets!
His whole personality and voice has changed since his transition and he has always had possibly more female friends rather than male friends anyway and certainly can never see him even thinking of attacking someone , which is what you are implying! The hormone treatment that trans going from men to women have cuts down on the testosterone and therefore the aggression and they really only see themselves as becoming what they have always believed they should be.
There is absolutely nothing to stop any man walking into a ladies loo and assaulting a woman anyway as so few public loos are now attended, if that is what they are determined to do. Why would you assume that, in your ignorance, that because someone is born a certain sex, as medically defined, that how they actually believe they what sex they should be would mean that they would instantly jump on someone of the sex they want to be ?
I can only suggest that you actually have a conversation with a transgender person at some point!

Have you read the thread. If so you would know I dont think my brother or son are going to jump on someone, I dont think they should be in single sex spaces though. As many many of us have said most of us know many transwomen, and in those conversations many transwomen agree with the need for sex segregated spaces.

I see the public loo issue as symbolic of the other 'female spaces' - a metonym if you like. They are called 'The Ladies', and even have a picture of a woman to differentiate them from 'The Gents'. They have Sanpro machines next to the condom ones, and the 'nicer' ones have tights on sale and scented handcream for when you've washed your hands.

Every different issue has slightly different features and connotations, so we could argue all day over whether it matters more if men are allowed into changing rooms but not refuges, or whatever. Even then, a changing room in a busy store with cubicles and an attendant in the communal area is different from those in a swimming pool where it is noisy and people are in stages of nakedness.

I don't think anyone is saying that men don't need refuges, but many women escaping male violence definitely need somewhere they are guaranteed not to hear male voices, or where a man won't tower over their children, or be sleeping nearby. Even if that's only for the first couple of nights, it is important to a lot of women. Maybe not all, but it is the ones who do need this who should drive the agenda, not the occasional man who needs refuge.

To stick with refuges for a minute - they used to be called 'Women's Refuges', and were set up by groups of feminists who could decide for themselves who could enter. Like so many things, they were formed by women for women, and had to be fought for - whether for funding, for the right to be set up amongst those who didn't want them in the neighbourhood, for police protection and so on. I'm sure that even then there were men who needed refuge, but they didn't set them up (as far as I know, anyway). If they had, men (however they identify) could have used those, with women and transitioned transwomen in the women's ones. But they didn't. Instead, they rely on women to take them into ours.

It seems that any issue with transwomen has to be dealt with by women. We are the ones to take them into our areas, our research groups, and our sports teams and deal with any associated problems, whether we like it or not. Men (and even if you think that transwomen are women, they started out as men) just wash their hands of it, and leave women to move over and deal with their issues, with the support of women who also see any 'coping' as being 'women's work'.

For the millionth time (or for the benefit of anyone who is coming to this discussion for the first time) none of the above means that transwomen who want to live quietly as women shouldn't do so. As is always 'helpfully' pointed out, nobody checks their pants to see what is in there, so there is nothing stopping them. It is the men with their penises out and on display in changing rooms, the ones with booming voices in refuges and the ones insisting on being locked up (and locked into a cell) with women in prison who are the concern, as well as the possibility of men who are intent on getting intimate access to vulnerable women using the No Debate climate.

And as has been alluded to here, it's not just about safety. It's about women having nowhere to go to be amongst other women. Yes, there are many public loos where few people would want to hang about, but 'powder rooms' have always been where women could gather and find female support - from borrowing mascara or buying a tampon to asking for help. Arguably the most famous feminist novel of the 70s was called The Women's Room.

jaylucy Tue 21-Sep-21 11:29:50

Well said and thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Doodledog Tue 21-Sep-21 12:04:21

Your attachment to public loos as "our area" is very odd. It belongs to the shop, the council or whoever made it availabe. It is put to them to ensure they are a safe area for all.

It’s a turn of phrase. I’d be surprised if anyone but you thought I was implying that they were mine, or that I had any ownership of them in a literal sense.

If I saw a bloke in the ladies loo I would report him. So would most. Especially if there was a Gents loo available. Same applies to changing rooms. We are old fashioned like that here.