Biological men in woman only spaces

Doodledog

It’s a turn of phrase. I’d be surprised if anyone but you thought I was implying that they were mine, or that I had any ownership of them in a literal sense.

I do apologise Doodledog; I didn't make myself clear.

I was not suggesting you own it, or that anyone using them did. It is this idea that by providing a toilet the owners automatically provide a "female space".

Obviously, the owners must ensure that the space is safe but that is different to this idea of "female space" monitored for those some people don't see as "female" or, it seems, barely human.

Reading jaylucy's post of Tue 21-Sep-21 11:29:50 reminded me of various events. In her post, she is describing a poor woman (who used to be her husband) just needing to go to the loo. Going to the toilet has been made an uncomfortable issue for him - even though it is something we all have to do.

This took me on to thinking of my father. When he was still with us he had IBS, Ulcerative Colitis and Diverticulitis. In other words, his gut was a mess. I am very sure that if a "women's" toilet was the only one available, he might have dashed in to use it.

While he was still going out he carried a card as the Crohn's and Colitis group was running an awareness campaign. Because as even that did not help at times, he stopped going out.

I have found something similar. My gut too is a mess. It seems there is a dodgy gene in the family. At one time I knew that looking healthy, if I avoided a queue and used a disabled loo, I would be able to hear the "tuts". This was when I discovered the tutters.

They have disappeared a bit now as those who provide the loos put up notices about invisible illnesses and conditions. However, I have a feeling we have a lot of tutters on this thread and they certainly do nothing for those who have to cope with some of the unusual things life throws at them - but still need to live in the world and go to the toilet.

In Scotland women who have been raped or sexually assaulted can no longer be guaranteed a female doctor. A man self identifying as female has more rights than the poor distressed women.

But jaylucy, no one on here has said that all trans are bad.
No one has said anything negative about the trans who do not inflict their maleness, or demonstrate or display their maleness in inappropriate places.
“Nothing to stop a man going into . . . “
What stops a man, dressed as a man, acting like a man from going into women’s spaces is the fact that they would be identified as a man. Now they can dress like women and claim to be women, why would a man even bother.
What stops a transwoman, looking like a woman, behaving like a woman from going into female spaces-probably nothing. As you and others say, no one looks down their pants.
What should be stopped are transwomen who behave like men, display their male appendages and insist that they have a right to be in female safe spaces even when that is distressing for females (who in some folks eyes should just ‘get over it!’) That equally applies to men who aren’t claiming to be anything else.
If your ex opted out of being a man and chose to be a transwoman, and is as you describe him, good on him perhaps you set a good example. Interesting you use male pronouns for him. Some posters would take issue with you over that as a sideline.

Do you mean the unusual thing of being raped or sexually assaulted for example. Those women who have had that thrown at them in life. Those women who need refuges for example, free from men because of trauma. Sorry if you view their needs as tutting. Those women need to live in the world which is why they fought for and fundraised for refuges etc. Can I make the claim that you see those women as barely human.

What should be stopped are transwomen who behave like men, display their male appendages and insist that they have a right to be in female safe spaces

Just how often is that happening? It is probably more likely that a man, dressed as a man could waylay a woman coming out of a toilet in a less than safe area at a less than safe time.

Safety is the problem - if there is one - not trans women.

Galaxy

Do you mean the unusual thing of being raped or sexually assaulted for example. Those women who have had that thrown at them in life. Those women who need refuges for example, free from men because of trauma. Sorry if you view their needs as tutting. Those women need to live in the world which is why they fought for and fundraised for refuges etc. Can I make the claim that you see those women as barely human.

No. But you see to be able to take something I didn't say from my post.

see seem

In the way you seem to take from peoples posts that they see transwomen as barely human.

I talk about Male violence all the time Pippa, I am involved with a womans refuge and other campaigns around this issue, talking about male violence doesnt mean that we see all men as predators. I have a similar condition to your fathers I would try very very hard to not use a mans toilet as I think they are entitled to single sex provision too. It would be better to provide toilets so that everyone's needs are met. As I have said toilets are relatively easily solved.

Maybe we should go to no DBS checks for those who work with vulnerable adults and children, after all if someone wants to be an abuser they will find a way. The vast majority of people are not abusers so why bother to try and weed out the few that are? There, I've just saved organisations tons of money at a stroke. Let all areas be mixed sex, most men are perfectly safe, it's patently unfair to say only a few selected male bodied people can enter. My husband isn't allowed in the women's changing area with me unless he declares himself a woman, yet I guarantee he's not a risk to anybody. If some people by reason of religious faith, fear or modesty can't cope with the new ways, then that's tough. Welcome to our brave new world, or maybe welcome back to what it was before women expended blood sweat and tears trying to enact change. The return of the urinary leash and worse can't be too far away for some women.

Afghanistan for example?

You see Rosie is able to understand that whilst her husband is not a risk, women who dont know him cant tell if he is a risk or not. She doesnt take offence because he isnt permitted in a female only space and because her husband is one of the good guys I bet he doesnt take offence either because he understands womens boundaries. Sorry to take liberties with your husband rosie

Galaxy

In the way you seem to take from peoples posts that they see transwomen as barely human.

Not good enough. You lied about what I had said, or rather what I hadn't said. I haven't said anything at all about the women about whom you say "Can I make the claim that you see those women as barely human."

Whereas there are people on this thread who have thrown everything but the kitchen sink and included all trans women as if they were all out to rape every women passing. They certainly gave enough evidence to make me wonder just how they see them. You had none to base your comment on.

Galaxy you have him and my 4 sons to a tee. They'd rather walk over hot coals than cause distress or embarrassment to any girl or woman.

You have dismissed womens concerns as tutting, so if you can extrapolate talking about crimes as seeing transwomen as barely human then I am afraid I can extrapolate the same from your posts dismissing womens concerns. Pippa as has been said before I can only speak for myself but I spent 10 + years working for an HIV charity which at the time mostly involved people who were from the LGBT community. Its really highly unlikely that I want transwomen to be discriminated against. Oh and I think transmen who are of course rarely mentioned in this discourse would be much much safer in womens prisons. It's very complex and really not about prejudice in my case. This doesnt mean that there arent people who are virulently transphobic but the women who are fighting to maintain single sex spaces dont in my experience fall into this category, nor do the gender critical transwomen, or the gay men who are raising concerns.

You have dismissed womens concerns as tutting ...

This is becoming a very twisted thread. That is not true either.

The women had enough of you to fight their cause but I am not impressed that you do any good for them. Had everyone been attacking them I would have put their case. However, whatever we want, change will happen and we need to see others as human beings.

Lies will not help any of the people involved in this. Open minds may.

Pippa, I understand that for various reasons there are times when people need to use facilities that weren't designed for them, such as the circumstances you describe, and I think only the most determined sticklers would expect everyone to adhere to the 'rules' in those situations.

But that's not what we are talking about. A man who is 'caught short' and needs to use the Ladies wouldn't usually raise an eyebrow if the Gents was out of order. Every time this topic comes up, people reiterate that they have no issue with transwomen like jaylucy's ex - people who have transitioned and are, to all intents and purposes, women using female spaces.

I know what you mean by tutters, as I also have a hidden disability, but don't see them on this thread - I see women who are expressing their point of view, which is that they feel safer when women's spaces (including, but not exclusive to loos) are not open to all.

I think that tutting was a wrong thing to say. I think you just dismiss women’s concerns. I agree about the lies though. When anyone wants to dismiss or negate women’s concerns over their rights, I see posts like ‘hundreds of thousands’ mentioned by one poster, but unsubstantiated.

Change may happen but it might not be the change you predict so yes it would be useful for everyone to keep an open mind. Some European countries are taking a very different approach in terms of how they offer support to those with gender dysphoria for example. No one is attacking transwomen they are defending single sex spaces. It's a difference in belief, I and other gender critical people dont believe you can change sex.

And even on this thread we hold different beliefs and that's ok. I think some spaces refuges prisons etc are only for women, and should exclude men whatever procedures they may have had done to their body. I suspect doodle might disagree with me but I also suspect she wouldnt think I was a bigot for holding that view.

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jaylucy The hormone treatment that trans going from men to women have cuts down on the testosterone and therefore the aggression and they really only see themselves as becoming what they have always believed they should be.

You do realise that there is no necessity for any hormone treatment at all in order to declare oneself transgender? These two transwomen clearly do not take female hormones. Lesbian transwoman Alex Drummond declines to take hormones just preferring "to widen the bandwidth of how to be a woman" So that would be makeup and stereotypically female attire. There were plenty of men doing that in the 80s. Their level of testosterone remains the same so their aggression levels will be unchanged by any hormonal influence.

Which is not to say I think transwomen are dangerous per se, but I think transwomen such as these give very easy cover for men with nefarious intent.

Galaxy

And even on this thread we hold different beliefs and that's ok. I think some spaces refuges prisons etc are only for women, and should exclude men whatever procedures they may have had done to their body. I suspect doodle might disagree with me but I also suspect she wouldnt think I was a bigot for holding that view.

Right on both counts, Galaxy. I would allow transitioned transwomen into refuges and female prisons, yes. I'm not sure where else they could safely go, unless we had special 'trans' ones, and tbh I think doing so could cause as many problems as it would solve. I also think that someone who has committed to the extent of having surgery is not going to be abusing the system, and that hormone therapy will at least reduce any 'male' aggression and similar issues that may arise from being in an otherwise all-female environment.

You are also right that I respect your right to think differently, and I'm not at all saying that I couldn't be persuaded to change my mind on that one.

I dont necessarily need to persuade you although I might try if you were running a refuge . For me you cant change sex, and it is women who are my priority and however much we pretend that you cant tell peoples sex I am afraid you can. So traumatised women will be made to go through more trauma because a person who they know is Male is in a space where no males are allowed. And for example say someone with a learning disability who receives personal care, telling someone that their caregiver is female when they know they arent is just not fair. There are lots of vulnerable people in society and sometimes rights clash.

I take your point (and rest assured, I won't be running anything, ever again unless needs absolutely must?), but I really can't see an alternative for transitioned people. These issues are always more complex than the way they are sometimes presented, aren't they?

Still, that debate seems almost a luxury problem in relation to men with beards wanting to 'increase the bandwidth of what it means to be female'.