Feeling politically homeless (new thread)

If there isn’t a GE for three years yet then anything can happen so isn’t worth worrying about.
The red wall voters didn’t like Corbyn ( who did?) and wanted the Conservatives to make good their promise that Brexit would definitely happen.

M0nica

Alegrias you need to realise, that the majority of people who voyed for the Conservatives still back them, and think Boris is doing the best job possible in difficult circumstances.

You should neither patronise nor despise those who voted Conservative, they are as entitled to their opinions as you are and they thought about their decisions as carefully as you did.

If we cannot respect our fellow citizens, whether we agree with them, politically, religiously or in any other way, or not, however can we hope to develop a civilised society, which isn't dominated by anger directed toward or hate of our fellow citizens.

Why does anyone "need" to do what you say M0nica? Why should we not deplore those whose principles, if they exist, we find reprehensible?

It isn't patronising to suggest that someone could make themselves more aware of the facts rather than thinking that an opinion must be equal to something provable.

Respect: a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

I do not feel like that about those who have voted this government into power. I loath many of those in this government for genuine reasons. Take those MPs who vote against their conscience, for example.

I don't think those views are "uncivilised". I find that a worrying suggestion in a democracy. In my opinion, such behaviours deserve nothing else. I would suggest that it is uncivilised to accept the abandonment of the poor and needy, just as the old and frail were.

What you describe sounds more like a dictatorship where we have to kowtow to Conservatism. I doubt many want that other than the Conservatives. Even some of them will feel they have a right to a democratic disagreement.

Stewaris that makes a change from the regular missives from Scottish posters who regard Sturgeon as some sort of saint.?

M0nica

Alegrias you need to realise, that the majority of people who voyed for the Conservatives still back them, and think Boris is doing the best job possible in difficult circumstances.

You should neither patronise nor despise those who voted Conservative, they are as entitled to their opinions as you are and they thought about their decisions as carefully as you did.

If we cannot respect our fellow citizens, whether we agree with them, politically, religiously or in any other way, or not, however can we hope to develop a civilised society, which isn't dominated by anger directed toward or hate of our fellow citizens.

Hear hear ??????
What reasonable poster could disagree with your comments.

Absolutely spot on lemongrove. ??
The Red Wall loaned their vote exactly for that reason. Boris was the only one offering to deliver on that referendum vote.

That was then though and this is now. They will be watching ...

PippaZ my objection is those doing the criticising are putting themselves on some high moral ground that suggests that their reasoning processes are far superior to those of those they disagree with. Yes, disagree with government policy, have a poor opinion of individual ministers. But those members of the electorate who vote for them are as intelligent and as able as anyone here and they should be respected as individuals and so should their decisions on which way to vote.

Much as I’d like to see an opposition coalition I’m not so sure that an actual electoral pact is the answer. Better if the parties agreed on a few key messages (surely not difficult), and voters took the responsibility for working out which candidate in their constituency is most likely to defeat the Tory.

lemongrove

If there isn’t a GE for three years yet then anything can happen so isn’t worth worrying about.
The red wall voters didn’t like Corbyn ( who did?) and wanted the Conservatives to make good their promise that Brexit would definitely happen.

Have you been talking to the man in the sky again lemongrove? As far as I am aware no one - except Boris and his team and he may change his mind - know when the next General Election will be. We know when it should be, but this is the man who thinks he is the "King of the World" so I wouldn't put money on it.

I agree many of the Red Wall voters voted for Brexit a second time in the election. Did they know it was going to be how it has now turned out to be? I know some of us pointed out these issues; I don't remember anyone saying "Well yes, it will be like that, but that's what I want", do you?

M0nica

Alegrias you need to realise, that the majority of people who voyed for the Conservatives still back them, and think Boris is doing the best job possible in difficult circumstances.

You should neither patronise nor despise those who voted Conservative, they are as entitled to their opinions as you are and they thought about their decisions as carefully as you did.

If we cannot respect our fellow citizens, whether we agree with them, politically, religiously or in any other way, or not, however can we hope to develop a civilised society, which isn't dominated by anger directed toward or hate of our fellow citizens.

I'm sorry?

Blaming a political party that gets nearly half the available votes, for another political party being in power in a different part of the system; that's OK, (*Callistemon*, 17:31) but saying that I blame the people who voted Tory for there being a Tory government is patronising?

This forum really has departed quite spectacularly from any vestige of reality.

lemongrove

If there isn’t a GE for three years yet then anything can happen so isn’t worth worrying about.
The red wall voters didn’t like Corbyn ( who did?) and wanted the Conservatives to make good their promise that Brexit would definitely happen.

Is this the post that upsets you PippaZ....note that I say ‘IF there isn’t a GE for three years’ not ‘ the GE will be in three years’.
I do wish posters would read comments properly.
Who’s the man in the sky btw? the man in the presumably.

for another political party being in power in a different part of the system; that's OK

A different part of the system?

Not what I said at all.

I do wish posters would read comments properly.

I despair also. BJ and his friends have totally mismanaged the whole lot. Bad judgment and bad decisions. And now we are in a mess, all round. I am really not sure where it is going to end.

Alegrias blame doesn't ccome into it. We have the government we have because lots of people voted for it. We have to respect them and the decision they made.

Many of us do not like the current government but to blame other people is to assume that we know so much better. We don't. We just have different opinions on what should be happening. I have no confidence that any of the alternatives currently on offer would have done any better. Differently, yes, but not better.

Alegrias blame doesn't come into it. 22:33pm

We can put the blame squarely on the SNP for continued Tory government. 17:31pm

Doublethink? Or just double standards?

If there was an election tomorrow I think your current government would be returned again, albeit with a smaller majority. It’s how people are, they like what they know, especially in times of stress. I think the same applies here, too though not 100% on that because our PM is MIA.

I haven't posted anything mentioning the SNP. Anyway that is talking about a political party, not its voters.

It isn't patronising to suggest that someone could make themselves more aware of the facts rather than thinking that an opinion must be equal to something provable.

that is exactly what I find distasteful. You are saying that if others thought as much as you do they would espouse your opinions (because they are morally superior?). Not patronising? What could be more so.

I think respecting the constitution and the way parties are voted into power (which I do up to a point) as well as accepting the decision, which I always do because it is based on fairness and transparency, is very different to saying one should respect those people who voted for what I consider to be knowingly a liar, moral vacuum and known incompetent to the post.

I prefer a better calibre of politician, at the very least someone who wasn’t sacked on more than one occasion for lying. I wouldn’t employ someone like Johnson, and so certainly have an opinion of those who appear happy to do so.

M0nica

I haven't posted anything mentioning the SNP. Anyway that is talking about a political party, not its voters.

It isn't patronising to suggest that someone could make themselves more aware of the facts rather than thinking that an opinion must be equal to something provable.

that is exactly what I find distasteful. You are saying that if others thought as much as you do they would espouse your opinions (because they are morally superior?). Not patronising? What could be more so.

That quote isn't from one of my posts.

I was really very angry last night at being accused of patronising people when that was far removed from both my post and its meaning.

A poster said that the continued Tory success was due to the parallel success of the SNP in Scotland, implying that if only the SNP didn’t exist, or was weaker, people would be voting Labour and the Tories wouldn’t be in power. As I pointed out, if every seat in Scotland went Labour, the Tory majority in Westminster would still be around 30 seats. So I find it completely unacceptable to “blame” the success of a particular political party for the dominance of the Tories. (And “blame” was the word used.)

Whether you think the SNP are numpties or not, whether you agree with their policies or not, people vote for them and that’s why they are successful.

So if not the SNP, who do we “blame” for the continued success of the Tories, if “blame” should be apportioned? I would have thought it clear that the people to “blame” for the Tories being in power was the people who voted Tory. I thought someone might pull me up for spouting a truism, but no, apparently stating the obvious is patronising. Voting Tory is an honourable position. Voting Tory because you agree with Tory values is healthy because we need a balanced electoral outcome. Voting Tory because you believe what is written on the side of a bus, and think Johnson is a good PM, deserves to be highlighted as muddled thinking. Continuing to think that they are doing a good job is beyond comprehension.

So, before accusing people of being patronising, or jumping on any bandwagons that suit your preconceptions about other people, consider what is actually being said and admit that sometimes, you can be wrong.

Finally, I really don’t need anybody to tell me that being angry is not good for my mental health, that I should let it go and calm down. If that happens, we can have another discussion about being patronising.

M0nica

I haven't posted anything mentioning the SNP. Anyway that is talking about a political party, not its voters.

That was me and yes, it was about a political party not its voters although my post was in answer to, I think, Romola who suggested that some parties stand aside to give Labour a chance of beating the Tories in the next GE. 40+ Scottish seats would make a huge difference; a swing back in traditional English Labour constituencies who last time voted Tory would ensure that.

Whatever happened to that traditional Labour stronghold which provided so many good Scottish MPs and PMs too?
It's all very sad.

Just a point of order; no party in Scotland needs to stand aside to make sure the Tories don't get in here. They don't get in here in reasonable numbers because so few people, proportionately, want them to win.

If what you want is for Labour to be more successful in Scotland, then maybe best to have a word with Labour instead of blaming parties who have got their at together.

act together

Whatever happened to that traditional Labour stronghold which provided so many good Scottish MPs and PMs too?

I know that they were losing seats before 2016, but I suspect that the fact that Labour was complicit with Brexit right from just after the referendum, while Scotland mostly voted to Remain, cannot have helped the LP in Scotland

Romola

Just someone else saying: please, all opposition parties i.e. Labour, Lib Dems and Greens including the SNP, you MUST make electoral pacts so that, in the next general election, the candidate most likely to win and/or defeat the Tory is the ONLY opposition.
Otherwise the opposition votes are split and the Conservatives will be in power until the end of time.
Once the so-called progressive opposition is in power, it should bring in a form of proportional representation (personally I like the German version) and then it can call another election which will be run by PR.

Answering your post, Romola, seems to have opened a can of worms!

Romola wasn't suggesting that the objective was for everyone else but the Tories to stand aside so that Labour win the next election.