Austria is introducing compulsory vaccinations in February. Other countries are giving the idea serious thought, and even Johnson recognises that we need “a national conversation” over the way forward.
The issue is that most people now entering hospital with severe covid are unvaccinated.
Rich countries examples of fully vaccinated are
USA 60%
U.K. 69%
Germany 69%
But
African continent 7%,
Every person not immune from this virus is essentially a viral factory, producing mutations.
But despite governments efforts there is still numbers of the population who are resisting the jab. So now we find that Germany, New York and a number of others are actively seeking to introduce compulsory vaccinations in order to break out if the cycle of wave after wave of sickness and lockdowns.
Argument then is this
Personal liberty v the greater good.
Biden argues that it has nothing to do with “freedom” but about protecting yourself, your lived ones and your community.
Others argue it is about government overreach.
Javid argues that it is unethical.
However it is worth remembering that this is not new - smallpox vaccine was compulsory in 19 century Europe and nhs staff have to get a vaccine.
A vaccine mandate will save lives. WHO argue that mandates should only been used when all other routes have been explored.
Clearly some countries are beginning to think that they have reached this point. In Germany 72% of people are in favour of mandating vaccination.
I think that this will be a major debate in the coming year, particularly if. Omicron and it’s cousins prove very difficult to control.
This from the Guardian a few weeks ago:
www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/sep/24/once-covid-world-beaters-the-mood-in-new-zealand-is-changing-and-jacinda-ardern-knows-it
people unable to get hospital care due to the NHS being clogged up with the unvaccinated
Yes! I read yesterday about someone unable to have their much needed kidney transplant due to ICU being full of mostly unvaccinated (and elderly) patients. Young girl.
My own DD had to wait 4 months to have a breast lump checked, despite us having a family history of BC and her carrying the BRCA1 gene.
GagaJo
I'm not sure how the link to ID checking works. It is possible to get a vaccination in the UK now without any identification and with no checking. Unless we're reverting to the idea of a computer chip in the vaccine?
In France we have a "carte vitale" which we produce whenever we need anything medical. In the UK we have an NI number so why can't everyone carry a card with medical information which could be produced when requiring treatment?
I do not feel the unvaccinated are really any more danger to me than the vaccinated as both can pass the virus on. In fact a lady that works for us is unvaccinated but I think she is at more risk than me
Must admit Maddyone I haven’t stopped going out large Charity ball a few weeks ago restaurants and hotels are definitely not off the agenda or restaurants Had enough of that last year
But for the general well being of society as a whole the more vaccinated the better
People also bang on about identity cards. Having an identity card would not worry me in the slightest having always led a law abiding life. I can’t imagine why it would concern anybody unless you were illegally in this country to begin with.
Anti vaxers bang on about their ‘rights’, but say very little about the responsibilities that go along with most rights. They may have a right not to take the vaccine, but with that decision comes the responsibility not to spread it to others. With that in mind are the unvaccinated prepared to be refused entry to virtually everything that constitutes ‘normal’ life and be working from home, because that’s the only alternative I can think of to vaccination. One poster said that they agreed with the compulsory vaccination of NHS and care staff - well why not compulsory vaccination for the rest of society, because the risk is the same.
rosie but where they are more dangerous is that they are as a scientist described covid mutation factories. That is where the risk lies.
rosie1959
I do not feel the unvaccinated are really any more danger to me than the vaccinated as both can pass the virus on. In fact a lady that works for us is unvaccinated but I think she is at more risk than me
Must admit Maddyone I haven’t stopped going out large Charity ball a few weeks ago restaurants and hotels are definitely not off the agenda or restaurants Had enough of that last year
But for the general well being of society as a whole the more vaccinated the better
But the unvaccinated ARE more dangerous - yes vaccinated people can pass the virus on, but the number of unvaccinated people is a key reason Covid variants are emerging. The virus replicates quicker in unvaccinated people, increasing the chance of mutations and the concern is that new COVID-19 cases will continue to rise as variants spread and people still refuse to get vaccinated. Omicron is now set to be the dominant variant in the UK by next week !!
Whitewavemark2
rosie but where they are more dangerous is that they are as a scientist described covid mutation factories. That is where the risk lies.
Just wondering as I know very little about the science of it all are mutations less likely in the UK and other countries that have a high vacination rate
Getting the rest of the world is a big undertaking and some countries have far more vacinne wary citizens than here no matter how much vacinne is available Will this cause ongoing problems
Forsythia
In the same way that people are arguing against government imposing vaccinations on those who refuse to be vaccinated, I want to know what about the safety of those who comply? Those against compulsory vaccination, how do you see a way out of this? Are you happy to see businesses ruined, personal pleasures curtailed in the long term, people unable to get hospital care due to the NHS being clogged up with the unvaccinated? Tell us what the answer is.
I think unless there is a real medical reason for not being vaccinated, the ones who refuse are putting the rest of us at risk and curtailing our lives. Why should they be allowed to do that?
Well seeing as you ask Forsythia, this is what I think the answer is.
Proper education - for instance, making sure that people like those that Shropshirelass knows understand why the majority of people in hospital are vaccinated, that this is what we would expect.
Making vaccination as easy to get as possible. Mumsnet is full of people complaining that they tried to get a vaccination but got turned away. Have vaccination centres on every street corner. Go into workplaces. Car Parks. Christmas markets. Where ever the people are. Make it easy for them.
Start a campaign, a proper campaign in the press, TV, Social Media whatever, that explains why you should have it, what the process has been to get it approved, how effective it is. Stop irresponsible journalists coming on TV to tell us the vaccines don't work against new variants, get them to explain it properly.
Start vaccinating children.
All those things cost money. But setting up systems to make vaccination compulsory costs money too. And you might think people should know all this already. Well they don't. So tell them
Its completely unacceptable to suggest that those who don't agree with compulsory vaccination are happy to see businesses go to the wall etc. maddyone, its also a bit on the cusp of unacceptable to say that life is more important than liberty. But that's a whole other thread.
Forsythia
People also bang on about identity cards. Having an identity card would not worry me in the slightest having always led a law abiding life. I can’t imagine why it would concern anybody unless you were illegally in this country to begin with.
If you haven't done anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about, is that it?
Don't get me started 
If we’re considering extra restrictions for the unvaccinated or even compulsory vaccination, I also think we need to look at the admin side of things too. I’ve had half a dozen emails from NHS England reminding me that I’m CEV and I haven’t yet booked my booster. I had it at the end of September and even contacted my GP to make sure my records were updated. I’m still getting the emails, and so are a lot of my friends and relatives. My partner had his second jab five months ago and has received two phone calls from his surgery this week, still trying to book him in for it when they should be booking his booster !!
Alegrias1
Forsythia
People also bang on about identity cards. Having an identity card would not worry me in the slightest having always led a law abiding life. I can’t imagine why it would concern anybody unless you were illegally in this country to begin with.
If you haven't done anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about, is that it?
Don't get me started
Enlighten us.
OK, at the risk of taking this off topic.
Who decides what are and aren't the applicable criteria for having an id card? Right at this moment the government are considering bringing in legislation that would allow them to remove citizenship of this country from people who are full citizens, who were actually born here, but whose parents came from another part of the world.
This country is governed by the consent of the population, not coercion. But if and when it all goes wrong, don't say I didn't warn you.
Back to vaccinations.
Playing devils advocate here, the U.K. other European Countries, and the Western World
enforce mandatory Covid Vaccines and thereby decrease the numbers in hospitals and negate mutations of the virus, brilliant.
The African continent has a vaccination rate averaging between 20-30% , many nomad tribes, much hesitancy and fear of Western White medicine.
(AC has just returned from living in an African Country for two years, DiL very much involved with charities going out into the bush to promote women and child healthcare, contraception etc. The only way to access these folks was/is through the tribe elders, who are usually older men very much set in their ways)
The logistics of a full vaccination programme i.e. three jabs and yearly follow ups would be a nightmare. I guess that would leave the continent to be a breeding ground for mutations for the foreseeable future, a plague continent does the rest of the world police Africas borders in order to keep its citizens in?
I realise this is a far fetched scenario, then again nobody envisaged the world closing down due to someone eating a bat/pangolin in a Chinese wet market?
According to BBC breakfast this morning, 60% of hospital Covid cases are fully vaccinated and 30% have had no vaccine. The 60% is in the main made up of the elderly.
Urmstongran
But maddyone you’ll never know who has or hasn’t been vaccinated (unless mandatory) so half the year (winter) you’ll live half a life. I suppose you think severe restrictions are the price worth paying. I wouldn’t but it does come down to choices made?
On another note:
At last, some common sense "Coronavirus latest news: Omicron infection could act as a 'natural vaccine' for Covid, professor says. "Everybody’s very likely to experience it in the next few weeks. If it is milder, and we know infection induces an immune response, [so] it is possible that this could act as a natural vaccine, getting to those people who have so far been unwilling to be vaccinated," Prof Riley told BBC Radio 4."
www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/covid-news-booster-cases-vaccine-passport-coronavirus-omicron2/
Note the word "could". He doesn't know for sure.
Smileless2012
According to BBC breakfast this morning, 60% of hospital Covid cases are fully vaccinated and 30% have had no vaccine. The 60% is in the main made up of the elderly.
And?
GagaJo
*people unable to get hospital care due to the NHS being clogged up with the unvaccinated*
Yes! I read yesterday about someone unable to have their much needed kidney transplant due to ICU being full of mostly unvaccinated (and elderly) patients. Young girl.
My own DD had to wait 4 months to have a breast lump checked, despite us having a family history of BC and her carrying the BRCA1 gene.
I think that it’s appalling that your daughter had to wait so long to get a lump investigated. Fortunately that was not me experience after my optician referred me for treatment following a TIA. The layers on my right eye have fused together and I’ve lost the sight in a portion of that eye, this is an indication of a TIA. This was on the 31st August.
Since then I have had an appointment to the Stoke Clinic at my local hospital, two visits to the eye hospital, an MRI scan and several phone conversations with my GP. I am now on blood thinners and statins.
I am grateful that however busy hospitals are with Covid patients, these clinics have still been running as normal, in fact possibly better than previously as waiting times while at the hospitals were very short and I saw a senior consultant at both visits to the eye hospital.
Obviously I did not need a hospital bed or intensive care but I was expecting some problems after reading lots of newspaper reports about chaos in hospitals.
Regarding compulsory vaccinations, I think that I would feel more comfortable mixing with people if vaccine passports were introduced for shops, restaurants, cinemas etc as in some other countries. However, as there is no evidence yet that being vaccinated reduces the spread of transmission, then forcing people to get vaccinated does not sit comfortably with me. I don’t understand why some people say that they refuse to mix with people who are not vaccinated when they are just as likely to catch Covid from people who have been vaccinated.
I would like to see our government, and I include all political parties, obey the existing rules around Covid rather than impose more drastic ones. The number of gatherings allegedly taking place in government offices during lockdown is appalling and very upsetting to those of us who followed the rules, I have not been able to have normal visits to see my mum since March 2020 and it looks like even my one short weekly visit sitting in an isolated visitors room is about to be further curtailed.
Alegrias1
OK, at the risk of taking this off topic.
Who decides what are and aren't the applicable criteria for having an id card? Right at this moment the government are considering bringing in legislation that would allow them to remove citizenship of this country from people who are full citizens, who were actually born here, but whose parents came from another part of the world.
This country is governed by the consent of the population, not coercion. But if and when it all goes wrong, don't say I didn't warn you.
Back to vaccinations.
What do you mean by consent? Brexit sort of consent, where people vote as a result of emotional reaction, lies or ill informed consent.
Or proper consent at an election?
Some more quotes from that article:
"Everybody’s very likely to experience it in the next few weeks. If it is milder, and we know infection induces an immune response, [so] it is possible that this could act as a natural vaccine, getting to those people who have so far been unwilling to be vaccinated,"
Likely
If
possible
could
The above aren't words which fill me with certainty.
Whitewavemark2
Alegrias1
OK, at the risk of taking this off topic.
Who decides what are and aren't the applicable criteria for having an id card? Right at this moment the government are considering bringing in legislation that would allow them to remove citizenship of this country from people who are full citizens, who were actually born here, but whose parents came from another part of the world.
This country is governed by the consent of the population, not coercion. But if and when it all goes wrong, don't say I didn't warn you.
Back to vaccinations.What do you mean by consent? Brexit sort of consent, where people vote as a result of emotional reaction, lies or ill informed consent.
Or proper consent at an election?
We are governed by consent because we don't have armed guards on every street corner. The vast majority of people agree to do what they're told.
It's the same in most classrooms. If 30 pupils really wanted to overwhelm one teacher, they could.
If 65 million people in the UK wanted to overwhelm those with any authority, they have the power to do it, but most wouldn't. They consent to the status quo.
Whitewavemark2
Alegrias1
OK, at the risk of taking this off topic.
Who decides what are and aren't the applicable criteria for having an id card? Right at this moment the government are considering bringing in legislation that would allow them to remove citizenship of this country from people who are full citizens, who were actually born here, but whose parents came from another part of the world.
This country is governed by the consent of the population, not coercion. But if and when it all goes wrong, don't say I didn't warn you.
Back to vaccinations.What do you mean by consent? Brexit sort of consent, where people vote as a result of emotional reaction, lies or ill informed consent.
Or proper consent at an election?
Consent in the wider sense of the world.
We consent to the way the police behave and police our streets. (Those people who talk about police states have really no idea, I think)
We consent to the fact that the people we elect make decisions on our behalf. And that they may not make decisions we all agree with.
And unfortunately about Brexit, yes. We had a vote and it went the way it did. If the voters were ill informed, we need to do something about that, not make the place more authoritarian.
GrannyGravy I'm guessing (but don't know for sure) that a nomadic lifestyle, lived mainly in the open air, protects people in the African bush.
Unlike HIV, Ebola and many other infectious diseases, Covid is transmitted mainly by airborne particles, so most infected particles just disappear into the air, where they "die" (they're not really alive in the first place).
The people in Africa and Asia most likely to be infected are those living in squalid slums.
Alegrias Consent needs to go hand in hand with being informed.
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