Politics: a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

So if the government decides to go for forced vaccination, even though it hasn’t been put to the vote, much like other stuff being introduced, would you consider that consent?

I take your point about it being a wide issue, but most of the examples you give have grown up over decades. This is a brand new issue and we are all feeling our way.

growstuff

Alegrias Consent needs to go hand in hand with being informed.

I agree growstuff.

So in the context of compulsory vaccination, we need to inform and educate people, not coerce them.

In the meanwhile, while people are arguing about consent at elections, people are still dying. Action is needed immediately not in months to come.

PS. I agree absolutely with your post @ 10.57.

Forsythia

In the meanwhile, while people are arguing about consent at elections, people are still dying. Action is needed immediately not in months to come.

OK, let's get going with educating and informing people then. Right now.

growstuff

GrannyGravy I'm guessing (but don't know for sure) that a nomadic lifestyle, lived mainly in the open air, protects people in the African bush.

Unlike HIV, Ebola and many other infectious diseases, Covid is transmitted mainly by airborne particles, so most infected particles just disappear into the air, where they "die" (they're not really alive in the first place).

The people in Africa and Asia most likely to be infected are those living in squalid slums.

They might move from place to place, but their huts/homes are small and overcrowded. It is not all sunshine and outside living. It only takes one person to be infected and hey ho…

growstuff

PS. I agree absolutely with your post @ 10.57.

And me. And that is the line the WHO are pushing.

All avenues exhausted before consideration of enforcement.

LucySnowe

This is so obvious to me; people who refuse to be vaccinated are selfish, ignorant morons ( I don’t of course include those who can’t be vaccinated on medical grounds). Look at the mess we’re in; facing yet another lockdown, people with other illnesses being left to rot and die (I work in the NHS), businesses folding left, right and centre and the untold effect this is having on people’s well-being.

This is not a normal situation and the world is in the worst state it’s been since WW2. I am SO angry with the anti-vax brigade because they are ruining the lives of the majority. And for what?

I agree. Much as I don’t usually like war analogies we are at war with this virus. The nearest example I can think of is that people that refuse the vaccine are like people who might refuse to black out their homes during the war which they obviously wouldn’t have been allowed to do because it would have resulted in those around them being killed too. Perhaps the problem comparing our country with New Zealand is that they know they have a leader who cares about them and that they can trust whereas there is suspicion that what our government does is often in their best interest and not ours.

From my understanding, in Russia people could go into any chemist to get a vaccination and I don't see why that couldn't have happened here with the AZ vaccination. The pharmacy staff are having to run the weekend centres regionally to me, so I can't see it would have made much difference. I understand that boxes of Pfizer and Moderna have to used within a specific time frame, which complicates it for those type.

As for ethics. Disabled people, especially those with learning disabilities were issues automatic DNRs at the beginning of the pandemic. Young people with disabilities were pointed on the frailty scale which never even invented to be used by them. So yes, we ALWAYS need to be mindful of what is ethical. I don't think those two examples were

I do think that there will be a problem of trust whatever and if a final decision is made.

That boat has sailed as far as this government is concerned.

www.healthline.com/health-news/unvaccinated-people-are-increasing-the-chances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how

This is a link to an article written back in August - well before Omicron - talking about a variant emerging which is vaccine resistant, or at least to which the vaccines’ efficiency is reduced. It’s well written and easy to understand, and sends a clear message about vaccination.

If everyone is vaccinated infection rates drop, and with them the variants, but if we have large numbers of unvaccinated people, they provide an easy host for it to mutate, eventually into a much more virulent form.

Alegrias1

Forsythia

In the meanwhile, while people are arguing about consent at elections, people are still dying. Action is needed immediately not in months to come.

OK, let's get going with educating and informing people then. Right now.

And what if, despite all that, they still refuse to be vaccinated. What then? Do their rights come before ours?

No to compulsory vaccination from me.

"And?" in relation to the title of this thread Alegrias it is not "a pandemic of of the unvaccinated" if the vast majority of those infected and hospitalised have been fully vaccinated.

Those who have been vaccinated can still become infected and pass it onto others.

Alegrias didn't start the thread

As an aside.

I’m loving this new politics forum.

What a good mornings debate it has been. Everyone knows what to expect and the contributions are brilliant.

Well done those who thought of the idea!

I’m still trying to work my way through the issue, just as I guess others are, and thanks to those helping me do just that.

Smileless2012

"And?" in relation to the title of this thread Alegrias it is not "a pandemic of of the unvaccinated" if the vast majority of those infected and hospitalised have been fully vaccinated.

Those who have been vaccinated can still become infected and pass it onto others.

I do wish people wouldn’t keep taking these figures out of context to suit their own opinion.

Complete immunity was never a promise of the vaccination programme. It’s nothing new that you can still get and pass on Covid even if you’re vaccinated, but in the main vaccination means that if you contract Covid, you’re likely to get a much milder infection not requiring hospitalisation.

You’re right - 60% of people hospitalised with Covid are fully vaccinated - but 60% of what figure. The number of people being admitted to hospital has been vastly reduced by the vaccine and the majority who are admitted to hospital are those for whom the vaccine doesn’t work as well - the elderly, those with co-morbidities and those who are immunocompromised. You failed to mention that the majority of people who are in hospital in ICU with Covid, are unvaccinated, and as at November 2021 most of the hospital resources for the treatment of Covid are being taken up by the unvaccinated.

Yes, those who are vaccinated can still become infected and pass it on. But the unvaccinated pose a bigger problem because they are easy hosts for the vaccine to mutate and produce variants - any one of which could prove vaccine resistant. What do we do then ?

Smileless2012

"And?" in relation to the title of this thread Alegrias it is not "a pandemic of of the unvaccinated" if the vast majority of those infected and hospitalised have been fully vaccinated.

Those who have been vaccinated can still become infected and pass it onto others.

The argument was by the article that the vast majority in hospital are now the unvaccinated. That and the fact that unvaccinated = covid mutation.

I can see multiple reasons for mandatory vaccinations, but it just does not sit well with me.

Education and easily understood information regarding Covid and vaccination is the way to go (in my opinion)

I agree with GrannyGravy13. I also don’t think individual follow up of the unvaccinated has taken place as yet, and that could be another way of persuading people who are wavering. I don’t think the hard core of anti-vaxxers will ever be persuaded, but the on the fence people might be if they are given hard evidence and spoken to individually.

I’m just wondering what will happen in 3 or 4 months when our booster vaccination protection has waned. Will there be another round of vaccinations with the same anti vaxxers still refusing? We seem to be running round in circles trying to catch up with the vaccination programme. What will be the end of all this? Or is this our life now for evermore?

If people are to be denied or charged for medical treatment, if they're unvaccinated, what about the obese? It's known that obesity is a major risk factor for ending up in ICU or dying. It's nearly two years since the beginning of the pandemic - arguably people have had the choice to lose weight.

GrannyGravy13

Playing devils advocate here, the U.K. other European Countries, and the Western World
enforce mandatory Covid Vaccines and thereby decrease the numbers in hospitals and negate mutations of the virus, brilliant.

The African continent has a vaccination rate averaging between 20-30% , many nomad tribes, much hesitancy and fear of Western White medicine.

(AC has just returned from living in an African Country for two years, DiL very much involved with charities going out into the bush to promote women and child healthcare, contraception etc. The only way to access these folks was/is through the tribe elders, who are usually older men very much set in their ways)

The logistics of a full vaccination programme i.e. three jabs and yearly follow ups would be a nightmare. I guess that would leave the continent to be a breeding ground for mutations for the foreseeable future, a plague continent does the rest of the world police Africas borders in order to keep its citizens in?

I realise this is a far fetched scenario, then again nobody envisaged the world closing down due to someone eating a bat/pangolin in a Chinese wet market?

Interesting theory about a possible connection between HIV and Covid mutations.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/11/why-uncontrolled-hiv-may-be-behind-the-emergence-of-omicron

Forsythia

Alegrias1

Forsythia

In the meanwhile, while people are arguing about consent at elections, people are still dying. Action is needed immediately not in months to come.

OK, let's get going with educating and informing people then. Right now.

And what if, despite all that, they still refuse to be vaccinated. What then? Do their rights come before ours?

That's a fair question Forsythia.

But I think it pre-supposes the fact that we have to have 100% vaccination or its all for nothing. I don't think that's the case and I don't think we'll ever get there.