England will have no further Covid restrictions until after the New Year.

I don’t think we can equate a pub owner’s need for profit with the nation’s need for essential services. It was said yesterday that the NHS currently has 20-25% ‘covid related’ absences - ie staff sick or isolating. That’s what threatens to overwhelm them rather than hospital admissions, though those will probably rise after all the unrestricted mixing over Christmas and New Year. Some schools had to close early before Christmas because of covid infections and isolating. Some may not reopen as usual. We are constantly being told that omicron generally gives a much milder illness if you are fully vaccinated (though of course many remain unvaccinated). That may be so but it’s the sheer scale of its effect that’s the problem rather than its severity. Staff absence on this scale isn’t something we can afford.

I also agree with Kali2 and time will tell, we will be able to measure ourselves against Scotland and Wales.

I am not particularly a cheerleader for a lockdown at the current time, I think a balance would have been the introduction of some restrictions such as social distancing. However I think people are underestimating the impact the new variant is having on a variety of sectors. I work in early years, in the week before term ended a number of settings were closed and a number were in the midst of severe staffing issues.

Germanshepherdsmum

I don’t think we can equate a pub owner’s need for profit with the nation’s need for essential services. It was said yesterday that the NHS currently has 20-25% ‘covid related’ absences - ie staff sick or isolating. That’s what threatens to overwhelm them rather than hospital admissions, though those will probably rise after all the unrestricted mixing over Christmas and New Year. Some schools had to close early before Christmas because of covid infections and isolating. Some may not reopen as usual. We are constantly being told that omicron generally gives a much milder illness if you are fully vaccinated (though of course many remain unvaccinated). That may be so but it’s the sheer scale of its effect that’s the problem rather than its severity. Staff absence on this scale isn’t something we can afford.

I don’t disagree with your points but just trying to say that restrictions have consequences. The pub was a simple one but if that owner relies on his profit or income to pay his bills his heat his light his food then being able to maintain his business is quite important
If someone or something suddenly took away our income we would suffer as I expect so would most people. They may have well have had reserves of cash in the beginning but I suspect this has been severely depleted
I don’t own a pub by the way

It seems to be rather obvious that the government should reintroduce financial assistance for businesses that suffer from covid restrictions, whether the restrictions be imposed by the government (which they won't be) or self imposed by concerned citizens.

Shutting their eyes to the damage being caused to the economy and people's livelihoods won't make the problem go away. This is still an emergency that requires active government intervention.

I think SAGE should never have been the only platform giving advice to government. I hope a more balanced approach now emerges.

Better late than never.

Balanced? How?

Do you believe the advice should be based on medical science, or ?!?

Not only about numbers going into hospital but staffing levels too. No one of us is truly immune despite vaccines.
Lack of after care for those needing it blocks beds and impacts on routine and emergency care that we may all need.
Deep down we must know that mixing where people may be spreading any germs let alone Covid can't be a sensible thing to do. Pre Covid, If friends and family had bad colds we at least tried to keep our distance.
So If Boris says we can mix I really don't think it means we must. Lets just be sensible. X

maddyone

^…some people are being condemned to stay in their homes without human contact or to risk death….^

Rather extreme example as usual, what’s wrong with a middle way? Go out, wear a mask, sanitise, avoid crowds, lateral test, mix with a limited number of tested people ie family. We did this over Christmas, no social engagements outside of family, lateral flows, mixed with family. Lovely two days, everyone safe.

As usual? Maybe you'd like to explain what you mean by "as usual".

If you are at high risk of serious consequences, lateral flow tests won't help you, unless everybody else you come into contact with and everybody they've contacted does them.

Wearing a mask and avoiding crowds won't guarantee that you won't be infected. Both will reduce your risk, but that risk is increased the more cases there are. You, of all people, should know that even people who take precautions can be infected.

Those people who think that there should be no restrictions and that mask wearing, etc shouldn't be compulsory are accepting that everybody will be infected and we know, for a fact, that some people (mainly the more vulnerable) will die.

vegansrock

Highest number of cases since last February and such a demand for PCRs that there was no availability yesterday -,this indicates we are still in the eye of the virus storm. The NHS is hanging by a thread and staffing levels are at an all time low. Cancellations rife. It may be fine and dandy out in the shires but it’s not great in our urban centres amongst essential workers. This should be just as much a concern as Covid hospital admissions.

I don't think it is fine and dandy out in the shires.

rosie1959

I think England has made the right call at this moment in time.
Hospital admissions are not increasing by huge amount and the death rate has remained stable and decreasing.
Our main problem seems to be the number of people getting infected not because it makes them seriously ill but because it takes them away from essential services. We also have a problem with the unvaccinated
We will see if the restrictions in Scotland and Wales make a great difference I suspect they probably won’t
Things will have to move if Covid becomes less serious as it is with Omicron

Which source are you using for decreased deaths?

rosie1959

It has been reported that the hospital admissions do not show which patients have been admitted because of Covid against those which have been admitted with something else and just happen to test positive although they have no symptoms

Who's reported that?

The figure I've seen from official sources is that about 10% of deaths from Covid in hospital are people who would probably have died anyway, but caught Covid in hospital.

growstuff

rosie1959

I think England has made the right call at this moment in time.
Hospital admissions are not increasing by huge amount and the death rate has remained stable and decreasing.
Our main problem seems to be the number of people getting infected not because it makes them seriously ill but because it takes them away from essential services. We also have a problem with the unvaccinated
We will see if the restrictions in Scotland and Wales make a great difference I suspect they probably won’t
Things will have to move if Covid becomes less serious as it is with Omicron

Which source are you using for decreased deaths?

Uk coronavirus dashboard

I agree growstuff. I’m concerned about the fallibility of lfts too. How many times have we heard of people having several negative results followed by a positive pcr?
I despair at the ‘we will have to learn to live with it’ attitude as though it were the common cold. To hell with those who are vulnerable, they’re expendable. And then along comes the next mutation. I’m not advocating lockdown, just sensible precautions - and yes they might mean some pub owners going under but are we all supposed to sacrifice our own welfare to ensure their profits?

Sorry that was in response to your post of 11.52. Several more while I was typing.

I think there are some subjects that expose deep seated prejudices. And it's often a surprise when that happens. I think the pandemic has demonstrated the view people have of those who have disabilities or chronic conditions. It's as if they arent seen as real people.

growstuff

rosie1959

It has been reported that the hospital admissions do not show which patients have been admitted because of Covid against those which have been admitted with something else and just happen to test positive although they have no symptoms

Who's reported that?

The figure I've seen from official sources is that about 10% of deaths from Covid in hospital are people who would probably have died anyway, but caught Covid in hospital.

Can remember have seen various medical professionals reporting that admissions are not split between people who are admitted because of Covid or tested positive on admission not actually caught in hospital

Pubs have been closing for a good few years now, perhaps due to cheaper alcohol from supermarkets, perhaps due also to the smoking ban. We can't save them all, covid has just speeded up their decline.
When you think of all the industries that we have already lost, steel, shipbuilding, coal, clothing, all manner of industries have been lost, for different reasons. I really don't think the hospitality industry can be saved without Government support.

I also don't like the "we have to live with it" mantra. But then I have recently read a post from someone who thought polio was not that bad, so who knows.

Lateral flow tests aren’t totally reliable, but reduce the risk.

I’ve heard of several cases where an LFT was negative, but later the same day (one within a couple of hours) a 2nd test was positive. This could either be because the original test was faulty, or the virus didn’t show significant amounts of pathogen until slightly later.

So it’s a good idea to take a LFT test as near to meeting up with others as possible, and repeat if the get together is prolonged.

No surprise from a populist PM to whom being popular is worth taking a gamble with the health of a nation yet again! Something he has continued to do since he claimed covid wasn’t a serious threat when it first reached our shores.

Surely, apart from allowing omicron to spread, he should be considering the adverse effect this will have on children who will suffer more if schools have to close again. He just doesn’t get it still!

We haven't had the figures over the Christmas period yet.

A political decision I'm afraid or rather the decision of the usual suspects of whom the PM must not disagree or he may find himself voted out.

By the way, I hope relaxing the rules is the right thing. It will just prolong the agony for another year if it is the proven wrong. When I hear that schools are fitting ventilation systems, I will breathe a sigh of relief.

Regarding SAGE Urmstongran
By Prof Valance 24/12/21
“All of the information from behavioural science through to immunology, modelling and virology, together with input from scientists from around the world comes to SAGE committee and its job is to try to turn this into advice for ministers……….
those who want to engage seriously with a debate that affects us all need to consider all the data in the round, not only those that fit an argument while ignoring the rest………
Speaking scientific truth to power is a difficult but necessary part of the democratic process if ministers are to be able to make an informed decision. This is what SAGE does”.
What other input would you suggest I wonder Urm?
I don’t think the science advice is the issue.
It’s the lack of transparency in how the politicians come to decisions concerning our health and what balance is given to science/politics. We might respect them more if this was the case.

Labour have called for the information that the government have used to carry on regardless to be made public. This would seem like a sensible suggestion. After all are we not all grown ups??

As far as I have heard and read, the only worrying area of the country is London, where, shockingly one third of people have refused the vaccine.
There has been an attempt to reach out to certain groups which are particularly hesitant, so all we can do is hope that persuasive tactics work well.

Apart from that it’s good news with deaths and hospital admissions low, despite high cases.

Ferguson possibly may not have been wrong 100% of the time but he has come pretty close if you look back on his totally inaccurate doom-ridden ‘predictions’ for SARS, Mers and various other potential epidemics.
I have no idea why Boris appointed him given his record.

DD1 and DSiL have it, DGS1 is just out isolation after having it - they are just waiting on DGD getting it then another 10 days. We have not seen them except to drop off food at garage door. I have just had PCR yesterday and waiting result. If I have it DD2 and DGS2 will have to have PCRs and DD2 will have to self isolate and not go to work in NHS till results. The 3 of us are triple vaccinated. DD1 and DSiL are double vaccinated and on day 7 of isolation and still testing positive so forgive me if I would rather support Scottish Government rather than Boris. He is taking a risk and are lives less important than business?