Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

I dont think women who have been raped or assaulted and want women only spaces are weak.

Why can the posters who are supporting trans women not support women in general.

Why can you not understand the difference between a fully transitioned trans women and someone self IDing as a women?

Three black women athletes from Arica are currently banned from competing unless they medicate their naturally high testosterone levels. Semenya has tried but the drugs gave her awful side effects. For every transwomen there will be a banned black women how is that anything to do with transpeople? It is the patriarchy but its nothing to do with trans issues.

trisher

GrannyGravy13

Women have fought bloody hard for their safe places, for equal rights for years and years.

Hey Ho along come men, like Lia (new name) the Ivy League male swimmer who couldn’t get into the top or win a race as a man, decided to ID as a woman and since has won every single race against girls/women who have trained for years, been at the top of their sport, what for them now?

If you cannot see that this is the patriarchy regaining control well…

Of course the patriarchy control women's sport but that isn't the fault of transwomen.
Unless you are blaming the contestants for all the restrictive and strange decisions taken. In which case maybe you should blame the white women athletes who objected to Caster Semenya for her being banned.

So you are more than happy for boys/men to self ID in order to compete against women and obviously with their physiological advantages win.

This will destroy womens sport, but hey ho 1% of the population will benefit.

Unbelievable trisher

As for bringing race into the discussion, you usually site anyone bringing up race as an excuse is loosing the argument?

Galaxy

I dont think women who have been raped or assaulted and want women only spaces are weak.

I don't think anyone has said that. I do wonder though why every woman has to be fearful because a transwoman might be in a public toilet.

Trisher, some of the stuff you post is the patriarchy but its nothing to do with trans issues, except that you post them in threads concerned with trans.

GrannyGravy13

trisher

GrannyGravy13

Women have fought bloody hard for their safe places, for equal rights for years and years.

Hey Ho along come men, like Lia (new name) the Ivy League male swimmer who couldn’t get into the top or win a race as a man, decided to ID as a woman and since has won every single race against girls/women who have trained for years, been at the top of their sport, what for them now?

If you cannot see that this is the patriarchy regaining control well…

Of course the patriarchy control women's sport but that isn't the fault of transwomen.
Unless you are blaming the contestants for all the restrictive and strange decisions taken. In which case maybe you should blame the white women athletes who objected to Caster Semenya for her being banned.

So you are more than happy for boys/men to self ID in order to compete against women and obviously with their physiological advantages win.

This will destroy womens sport, but hey ho 1% of the population will benefit.

Unbelievable trisher

As for bringing race into the discussion, you usually site anyone bringing up race as an excuse is loosing the argument?

I didn't bring race into it GG13 if you don't understand that black women are outraged about what has happened I suppose that is understandable. But perhaps you need to examine your white privilege. White women objected to Caster Semenya. White men control the patriachy which controls international sport. Women in sport are still subjected to huge personal interference because they are women, but it is black women who are suffering the most. Which is worse competing and being beaten by a transwomen or not being permitted to compete at all because of a natural function of your woman's body?

trisher

GrannyGravy13

trisher

GrannyGravy13

Women have fought bloody hard for their safe places, for equal rights for years and years.

Hey Ho along come men, like Lia (new name) the Ivy League male swimmer who couldn’t get into the top or win a race as a man, decided to ID as a woman and since has won every single race against girls/women who have trained for years, been at the top of their sport, what for them now?

If you cannot see that this is the patriarchy regaining control well…

Of course the patriarchy control women's sport but that isn't the fault of transwomen.
Unless you are blaming the contestants for all the restrictive and strange decisions taken. In which case maybe you should blame the white women athletes who objected to Caster Semenya for her being banned.

So you are more than happy for boys/men to self ID in order to compete against women and obviously with their physiological advantages win.

This will destroy womens sport, but hey ho 1% of the population will benefit.

Unbelievable trisher

As for bringing race into the discussion, you usually site anyone bringing up race as an excuse is loosing the argument?

I didn't bring race into it GG13 if you don't understand that black women are outraged about what has happened I suppose that is understandable. But perhaps you need to examine your white privilege. White women objected to Caster Semenya. White men control the patriachy which controls international sport. Women in sport are still subjected to huge personal interference because they are women, but it is black women who are suffering the most. Which is worse competing and being beaten by a transwomen or not being permitted to compete at all because of a natural function of your woman's body?

You really have absolutely no idea have you?

trisher Perhaps you should start a thread on why some women have higher levels of testosterone than others, because it is definitely got nothing to do with the trans/self ID situation.

Mollygo

Trisher, some of the stuff you post is the patriarchy but its nothing to do with trans issues, except that you post them in threads concerned with trans.

If some people don't understand that it is the patriarchy and not transpeople that control things what else can I do?
And anyway I'm a confirmed feminist I use every opportunity to promote Smash the Patriachy!! what feminist wouldn't?

GrannyGravy13
Trisher always brings race, or Naziism in when she has no coherent response.

I’m sure that she actually hasn’t had a daughter suffer at the hands of a male athlete who wins the race her daughter has trained long and hard for, and had a good chance of winning against other females. Or been traumatised by a man, only to be faced with a man telling her she needs to reframe her trauma.
For some people, like t, personal experience is necessary for understanding.

GrannyGravy13

trisher Perhaps you should start a thread on why some women have higher levels of testosterone than others, because it is definitely got nothing to do with the trans/self ID situation.

No it's an example of how badly run women's sport is. It's an example of the patriachy in action. It's an example of what intersectional feminists realise needs to be got rid of. If you imagine trans issues are a real problem in sport why aren't black women's? "Take it to another thread." That's exactly how patriarchy works. Divide and rule Don't address all inequalities and unite because you might manage to change something. The awful thing is there are now women who really believe they are doing something radical and don't realise how they are being manipulated.
"No one is free until we are all free"

This thread did start quite friendly and informative but it's gotten a bit dark and turning into a pile on towards anyone trying to find safe space that includes trans people accross now 3? Threads?

I don't know about anyone else but I'm going to take a break

Mollygo

GrannyGravy13
Trisher always brings race, or Naziism in when she has no coherent response.

I’m sure that she actually hasn’t had a daughter suffer at the hands of a male athlete who wins the race her daughter has trained long and hard for, and had a good chance of winning against other females. Or been traumatised by a man, only to be faced with a man telling her she needs to reframe her trauma.
For some people, like t, personal experience is necessary for understanding.

You may need personal experience to understand trauma I don't. I have no idea what it is like to run a race at Olympic level but then I suspect neither have you.
The question I asked remains unanswered which is worse to compete and lose to a transwoman or to be banned from competing because of a functionof your woman's body
I understand why it hasn't been answered.

‘If you imagine trans issues are a real problem in sport why aren’t black womens’ (*trisher*)

What do you mean?
I don’t understand

Blimey! What a minefield this issue is. I am scared to talk to anyone in case I get the pronoun wrong or inadvertently offend anyone.

volver If you are in a vulnerable position and are not happy with how you are being treated, scream the place down says it all and perfectly encapsulates the attitudes of so many. Apparently unable to imagine what it's like and unable to empathise with what it is to be vulnerable, to be in an abusive relationship, to be disabled. To blame vulnerable people for not screaming loudly enough is the lowest of the low.

trisher Which is worse competing and being beaten by a transwomen or not being permitted to compete at all because of a natural function of your woman's body? well you tell us, although I would point out that a transwoman who wins every race is disadvantaging many other women each and every time they compete, and the records they set are beyond the reach of any female. Lia Thomas beat the second place swimmer by almost 40 seconds, unheard of in competitive swimming.

Posted too soon. The whole transwomen in sport issue could be resolved by having a female only category and an open category. Of course Lia Thomas wasn't such a hot shot when competing against males.

VioletSky

Dickens thanks, I'm not good at explaining myself sometimes I think.

It's like if there were 2 dating profiles and I was in the preferences section:

1. I'm looking for a man, 18 to 30, good sense of humour, enjoys being outdoors and physical activity, loves dogs and going on adventures.

2. I don't date women, old people, people who sit around watching tele, overweight people or people who like cats and are boring..

I know that's a out there but profiles like the second one exist and are very very off putting because they don't sound like nice people.

Under the circumstances you've illustrated - a dating site - the second 'preference' is indeed unnecessary.

But I'm talking about a different scenario. And I think you know that.

trisher can you state clearly whether you see it as acceptable to have Lia competing as a woman just because s/he claims to be one.
Why not separate categories, male/female/trans ?
Please leave race out of this. Conflating the two muddies the waters

With regards to Caster Semenya and the dsd she has, she is unable to compete at some distances because her testosterone levels (from her internal testes) are those in the male range giving her an unfair advantage, not because she is black. The 46XY dsd is not specific to black people, a white athlete with the same testosterone levels and dsd would also encounter the same restrictions. Caster has the option of going for the longer race, suppressing her testosterone levels or deciding not to compete. Of course if we had an open category for men and women to participate in that would solve the problem at a stroke.

Just listen to yourselves.

Volver's mocking traumatised women. Volver's cruel and misogynistic. Volver's blaming women.
Volver thinks we’re silly little women.
Volver is supporting the patriarchy.
Volver thinks disabled women aren’t worth anything.
Volver’s just having a bit of fun, volver’s a liar.

Volver actually thinks people should stop obsessing over what other people call themselves and just get on with it. Volver actually thinks that people who get in a pickle over whether lesbians can have penises and whether they can be called homophobic aren’t doing the cause any good at all. Volver’s been a feminist for a good 50 years and isn’t going to be told by anybody that she supports the patriarchy or any of the rest of it.

Volver wishes some people could see that general haranguing and inability to see that they are objectionable bigots doesn’t do any good at all.

Volver’s not coming on any more trans threads, ever. They are peopled with posters who won’t listen to anybody else’s opinion and will no doubt have another go now.

Just listen to yourselves. Pitchforks and burning torches.

Rosie51

With regards to Caster Semenya and the dsd she has, she is unable to compete at some distances because her testosterone levels (from her internal testes) are those in the male range giving her an unfair advantage, not because she is black. The 46XY dsd is not specific to black people, a white athlete with the same testosterone levels and dsd would also encounter the same restrictions. Caster has the option of going for the longer race, suppressing her testosterone levels or deciding not to compete. Of course if we had an open category for men and women to participate in that would solve the problem at a stroke.

There are some major mistakes and preconceptions in this
Firstly naturally occurring testosterone has never been tested or shown to give any advantage in compettetive sports. Articficial testosterone does and is banned as a substance.
Secondly Caster Semenya has taken the drug necessary to reduce her levels and had awful side effects.
Thirdly there are only black athletes involved in these bans, the probability that white athletes might be tested doesn't mean the policy isn't racist.
Fourthly the testosterone test was only introduced after CS had passed numerous attempts to rule her out of competetive sport including intimate body examinations.
I am amazed that any woman could fail to see the absolute sexism and racism that has and still exists in women's sport, and would fail to support a woman who has always been a woman, who is expected to change and alter her natural body functions to compete, and put up with terrible side effects to do so.
Whilst simultaneously condemning a transwomen who has simply taken the application of drugs and surgery to another level.
It seems it is OK to medicate a woman in some circumstances but not in others.

Galaxy wishes that people who know absolutely zero about the issues involved will stop telling people they are bigots. I mean at least try and be original.
I think you missed out the word witches though.

volver

Why did she call herself JK Rowling and not Jo?

Because boys are less likely to read books written by a woman; whereas girls are more open minded.

This was the actual reason - not my opinion.
But as an ex Teacher of Reading I would concur.

(Apologies if this has already been mentioned; I’m only just wading through the thread.
While on hold to the DWP )