Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

For the most part. That’s nice trisher.

From the cass report there seems to be inadequate collection of data to say anything with such certainty with regards to the treatment of young people. I am sure the report is wrong though.

I read the Cass report, thanks SueDonim and 100% agree that the GIDS clinic at the Tavistock clinic isn’t fit for purpose. I can't help but worry that, in time to come, it will be a national scandal that so many children have been poorly advised and mentored and that horrendously damaging and irreversible drugs have been pumped into them. It's a ticking time bomb.

trisher The effects of puberty blockers are for the most part reversible

Puberty blockers administered for precocious puberty are administered for a short while. They are used to delay puberty that is starting in a girl under 8 or a boy under 9. They would normally be stopped around those ages or within a year or so after those ages. That's when the effect is reversible, and the child then begins their normal puberty.
When people quote the "they've been used for decades" this is the use they are referring to. They have not been used for decades for older adolescents.

Just been catching up with this thread and there are some great, informative and well balanced posts, and so much information.

That's very interesting Rosie and is another example of how facts can and often are skewed to suit a particular point of view and IMO if the effects of puberty blockers are for the most part reversible so this not always being the case, even more important that extreme care is taken before they're prescribed.

I don't think you are transphobic at all, from what you posted, Luckygirl. In fact, you sound liberal and concerned for the well-being of young people. I think it is a shame that you need to ask yourself if you have a deep-seated fear of a group of people because of a campaign that has left people confused about what transphobia means.

It's hardly surprising though is it Doodledog when you're accused of transphobia by stating the biological fact that a man can't be a woman.

You make some very good points M0nica and yes, I agree that what we always termed as "a tomboy" when we were children, would now have you sat in front of a gender dysphoria panel discussing if you wanted to begin a "gender reassignment journey". My bestie is a primary school teacher and has seen an increase of pupils, predominantly girls, saying that they're a boy. But once they've been referred onto counselling, not one of them has, so far, continued with it after their first session. She's likened it to the phase of mass fainting in schools that happened in the 90s. But with far more serious, and longer lasting, consequences.

There is more self harm amongst adolescents and children than when MOnica and most of us were children. There are more mental health problems and as we know, services have been run down so badly, it’s difficult to get treatment for children with suicidal thoughts.
We don’t know enough about the increase in children who are in distress about gender. We’ve had increasing division in clothes and toys marketed at infants, toddlers and primary age children. It’s still nurses outfits aimed at girls, doctor’s kits at boys. Children are being sexualised. Add a pandemic and the rise in mental health problems is no surprise.

Smileless2012

It's hardly surprising though is it Doodledog when you're accused of transphobia by stating the biological fact that a man can't be a woman.

True. People are accused of transphobia by people who define the term in their own way, but are unable to define the concept of the very things that transpeople want to transition into. Bonkers.

trisher No, self harm never ever occurred to me, partly I suspect because I was considered an all round oddity. I am dyspraxic, that has been diagnosed, almost definitely I have ADHD and I also had an awkward and difficult bowel condition that led to a lot of bullying.

My approach to it, from a very young age, and it was noticeable enough for the doctors to comment on it, was never to make a bad situation worse by reacting in a way that would make life yet more difficult. So I just hunkered down, and made the best of it. Fortunately I was constantly changing school, so I always had the knowledge that in a year's time iIwould have moved on, until I was 11 and like most army brats went to boarding school. By ten I had developed a lot of resilience and also had the good fortune to meet a kindred spirit, who was as subversive as I was - and we remain close friends to this day.

I completely agree with your observations regarding poor mental health amongst children and adolescent Iam64 and this has been massively exacerbated by the social isolation caused by the pandemic. But that has to lead me to the question: knowing just how badly affected that particular demographic have been in respect of mental health difficulties, why would those, who claim to hold young people's wellbeing so close to their hearts, seek to validate, escalate and magnify their problems to a point that long term irreversible harm is undertaken? Why, in God's name would they do that?

MOnica, I’m another tomboy who in today’s climate, and with less sensible parents could have been persuaded by age 10/11 that I wanted to be a boy. I identified of course with George in the 5 books. I played with boys, and remember telling mum I wish I was a boy because they have more fun. She advised me to take the best of being a boy and the best of being a girl and enjoy life
Like MOnica I changed schools frequently, not army but similar. We were always ‘different’ got skilled at appearing unbothered by being outsiders. We developed resilience. Life was not smooth but it wasn’t the kind of pressure children are exposed to now

Why, in God's name would they do that?

Because it makes them look 'kind'? A lot of things done in the hope of virtue-signalling are actually harmful to the people being 'helped'. Giving food to alcoholic beggars, which they won't eat because they are past the stage of getting calories from food, for instance - it makes a good shot for Insta, but is likely to attract rats, and leaves the beggar with less money that he could have spent on a bed for the night (or even a drink that would keep DTs at bay).

Why, in God's name would they do that?

Can’t improve on your answer Doodledog, so I’m just endorsing what you said.

Doodledog I am absolutely in agreement, but would add it also rises from a fixed mind set that brooks no opposition and no ability to understand any other view point (Vladimir Putin is an example of that kind of mind set).

Earlier on this thread someone referred to the Reimer twins and a psychologist called. I think, Jack Money. Look him up and everything talks about an eminent psychologist, his research, the esteem he is held in. Then follow the link to the twins and the story from them and their family and friends and the picture you get is very very different. It is one of sexual and psychological abuse by someone with a fixed mindset that would admit no opposite view. Both of the twins committed suicide when they were quite young.

I cannot find the original link quoted here - the thread runs to 21 pages but read this one. allthatsinteresting.com/david-reimer

trisher

M0nica I wonder did you ever consider self harm when you were a "tomboy" because that is the recourse of some who are uncomfortable with their body and their assigned gender. That's one of the reasons puberty blockers are given Luckygirl3 because if the alternative is a child who attempts to change his or her body by doing potentially damaging things which leaves scars it is much better to delay the development which bothers them and allow them a space to explore. The effects of puberty blockers are for the most part reversible

Doctors take an oath to do no harm, which means that yes, sometimes puberty blockers prevent harm.

This is also why you can sometimes get breast reductions, breast enhancement or nose jobs or other alterations on the NHS because not doing those things can be harmful to the person.

Hallelujah! Progress and some good news. Women's Aid have issued their Single Sex Services Statement today and it's confirmed that what we've all known is needed, is now formally recognised as appropriate. Salient points are:

Today, it is still widely acknowledged by expert service providers that single sex, trauma informed spaces are crucial in providing safe spaces for recovery from abuse and violence for women and their children. However, there is a trend towards gender neutral commissioning of services and its abandonment of commissioning the specialist domestic abuse services which are needed for all parts of the population. A consequence of this is that woman-led, single sex services are losing funding, which results in local communities losing the deep expertise and decades of experience these services provided. This is part of a worrying move by commissioners to disregard the sex-specific nature of domestic abuse.

Additionally, there is an ongoing exchange of different views on the inclusion of trans women in single sex spaces including with commissioners, within feminist movements and organisations, and across society at large.

Our members are a diverse group of organisations providing a range of high-quality support and services. Some members offer support to women and children only, while others support all victims of domestic abuse. Most member organisations deliver at least some women only (single sex) services, most commonly through refuge accommodation and groups.
Many members provide responsive and effective community support and emergency accommodation to trans and non-binary survivors. A relatively small number of trans women need to access emergency accommodation. Where they do, some member organisations provide this within their accommodation on a case-by-case basis while others provide alternative dispersed accommodation or signpost to other organisations.

Our priority is to meet the needs of all survivors to have spaces where they can heal and be provided with trauma informed support.
We know from our members that many women and children who have been subject to male violence and abuse need access to support and accommodation which is provided in single sex spaces as this reduces their distress and trauma. We therefore support the principle of providing single sex domestic abuse services which is lawful under the Equality Act.

Some members conclude that it is not appropriate to include trans women (including those with a Gender Recognition Certificate) in women-only shared spaces. We support their right to make this assessment, as long as they do so lawfully.

We will continue to support trans women to approach Women’s Aid for help directly. When they do, we will support where we can as ever, and signpost to specialist services that best respond to their specific needs and circumstances as appropriate.

Full report here: www.womensaid.org.uk/womens-aid-single-sex-services-statement/

MOnica thank you. I’d never heard of the Reiner twins. What a tragic story about this gender experiment on the whole family,

Chewbacca / good news from Women’s Aid

Chewbacca-great news from Women’s aid.

Dear God the Reimer twins story is almost gothic in its horror. Child mutilation, psychological and mental abuse ending in suicide; just horrific.

M0nica:
Doodledog I am absolutely in agreement, but would add it also rises from a fixed mind set that brooks no opposition and no ability to understand any other view point (Vladimir Putin is an example of that kind of mind set).

So now anyone that doesn't share the GC point of view is being compared to Vladimir Putin?

Can you even hear yourself?

I hadn't heard of the Reimer twins, but agree that it is horrific.

I also agree that the Women's Aid story gives hope. With any luck it will be the first of many such stories, as the scales fall from more and more eyes.

Hi GagaJo. We cross posted.

You may have missed my earlier post, asking if you would please let us know your definition of a 'woman' and a 'man', so that we can understand what it is that you think people 'just know' that they are? It would definitely help understanding between the two 'sides' of the argument if we each knew those basics from the other.

VioletSky In your post of 07:36:35, you say that there are increasing attacks on trans people. Can you provide any factual evidence for saying that? The only violence that has been commented on in any of the GC/trans threads that I’ve read happened to women and was committed by trans activists.

Chewbacca re. the chat with my g’son, he is strongly against biologically intact transwomen entering any women’s safe single-sex spaces. He is not anti-trans, when he was at school, he was very close to and supported a girl who was really struggling with her identity, she thought she’d be happier as a boy, changed her name, wore boy’s clothes, etc. After not many appointments with child psychology services (fortunately she was seen amazingly quickly, unlike now) it became obvious that her upbringing/life at home was dysfunctional and abusive but this had been very well “covered up” and that she was reacting to life events. He’s still close to her, sadly she is still an unhappy young woman, is still under the auspices of psychology (hasn’t had a face to face appointment since well before the first lockdown) but has realised that claiming to be a boy is not the answer to her mental health problems.

Gender ideology can be boiled down to “I don’t know what a woman is but I know a transwoman is one”.