Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

that is classic gaslighting

Oh Doodledog I hear you. I've been gaslit too; apparently I've deliberately misunderstood, I've mis remembered what's been said, I've taken things out of context, I've twisted what's been said etc. I've challenged it too and it's been denied and turned back on me that it's me that's gaslighting; classic DARVO. All mind games and tactics that are best ignored if you can; it's not you, it's them.

GG13 It's been in all the papers www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/22/i-will-not-be-held-prisoner-the-trans-women-turned-back-at-ukraines-borders
I didn't realise how Ukraine treated gay and transpeople. Rated 39th out of 49 isn't good. And no gay marriage.

GrannyGravy13

Yes they are Whitewavemark2 they have all male genitalia until they have fully transitioned.

And even then, they are still male. Chopping bits off doesn’t change your gametes.
Trisher says, Did you read about the abuse the transwomen are being subjected to? How they are searched by men who fondle their breasts and make personal remarks about their bodies. Do you not realise that men who behave like that will do the same to any women.
Like GG13 I’m eagerly anticipating your links trisher.
However, even without links. I do realise that males who behave like that will do the same to any women.
So now you’ve accepted that trisher, you obviously realise that any ill-intentioned males or transwomen should not be allowed in women’s safe places because they will do that to any women.

Doodledog I apologise if I misread this statement Every case only goes one way, doesn't it? as meaning all children questioning their gender identity are pushed into transition. I'm pleased you realise some children simply look and dress differently to others and pass through phases just as they used to whereas other children suffer distress and pain because they have gender dysphoria.
Of course I realise that, and have never said otherwise, but thank you for your apology. My concern is how far the lines between those states are blurred by politically motivated vested interests.

What we don't know is whether the children who were 'going through a phase' in the past would now be seen as 'dysphoric' and vice versa. Children now are taken a lot more seriously than before, and whereas in many ways that is a good thing, I do feel that there is a conversation to be had about how far we should allow them to make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives. I am not saying that they shouldn't be listened to, but that we need to listen to child psychologists about where adult responsibility for children's long-term well-being starts and ends.

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

Isn't it funny how all the allegations of gaslighting DARVOing and every other kind of persecution you can imagine comes from the gender critical. It might be considered part of a pattern of perceived persecution. but actually it's probably just a way of trying to counter perfectly reasonable posts. If you can't question the content claim you are being persecuted. They'll probably say I'm doing something similar now. It's very hard to discuss anything under these terms. Of course some are free to throw abuse about whenever they like.

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

But females aren't equal in Ukraine now they are permitted to leave the country.

I am lucky enough to be a healthy (although overweight -lost 2lbs this week) 76 year old.

I see no reason why given the training I could not be given a gun to defend my country.

No reason for me to opt out.

trisher I have read the article, Ukraine hasn’t got the best record on LGBTQ rights I agree.

trisher

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

But females aren't equal in Ukraine now they are permitted to leave the country.

That is a big statement, I’m sure that a Ukrainian female would disagree.

GrannyGravy13

trisher I have read the article, Ukraine hasn’t got the best record on LGBTQ rights I agree.

Their record re LGBT Q rights have nothing to do with whether one is expected to fight for one’s country.

There are lots of natal women who have remained in Ukraine to fight for their Country. Some have even taken their children to safe Countries and then returned.

The alternative to not allowing women and their dependents to leave (whether they be children or elderly/disabled relatives) would be 1,000’s of misplaced children and elderly without a family member to care for them financially, emotionally and physically.

Doodledog

*Doodledog I apologise if I misread this statement Every case only goes one way, doesn't it? as meaning all children questioning their gender identity are pushed into transition. I'm pleased you realise some children simply look and dress differently to others and pass through phases just as they used to whereas other children suffer distress and pain because they have gender dysphoria.*
Of course I realise that, and have never said otherwise, but thank you for your apology. My concern is how far the lines between those states are blurred by politically motivated vested interests.

What we don't know is whether the children who were 'going through a phase' in the past would now be seen as 'dysphoric' and vice versa. Children now are taken a lot more seriously than before, and whereas in many ways that is a good thing, I do feel that there is a conversation to be had about how far we should allow them to make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives. I am not saying that they shouldn't be listened to, but that we need to listen to child psychologists about where adult responsibility for children's long-term well-being starts and ends.

Doodledog I don't know what politically motivated vested interests you are referring to. There may be a few transpeople who like new converts try to change everyone else, but I would imagine most are caring people. It is early days in open trans medication and like most medical matters it is probably not absolutely perfect yet,
But it is a fact that children denied access to good care and counselling will resort to ordering drugs on-line and that is much more dangerous.

Whitewavemark2

trisher

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

But females aren't equal in Ukraine now they are permitted to leave the country.

That is a big statement, I’m sure that a Ukrainian female would disagree.

How can she disagree? Men can't leave the country, women can how is that equal?

People may or may not choose to fight

Subjecting anyone to intrusive and abusive searches for no real reason is always wrong.

GrannyGravy13

There are lots of natal women who have remained in Ukraine to fight for their Country. Some have even taken their children to safe Countries and then returned.

The alternative to not allowing women and their dependents to leave (whether they be children or elderly/disabled relatives) would be 1,000’s of misplaced children and elderly without a family member to care for them financially, emotionally and physically.

Yes I think that is right. Those male or females with dependents - must be protected as the children are the next generation. So should be allowed to seek refugee status.

trisher

GG13 It's been in all the papers www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/22/i-will-not-be-held-prisoner-the-trans-women-turned-back-at-ukraines-borders
I didn't realise how Ukraine treated gay and transpeople. Rated 39th out of 49 isn't good. And no gay marriage.

Ukraine, along with a lot of Eastern Europe, has a very 'macho' (and anti-gay) culture. Remember that it was part of the Soviet Union until 1992.

Aspects of that culture can be attractive (everyone in the whole world must have a huge crush on Zelensky!), but it has its downsides. Whereas it is the culture of 'manly men' who are trained to use guns in school that has allowed them to fight off a powerful army for as long as they have, the residual homophobia and sexism will be difficult for those wanting to live a less 'traditional' lifestyle.

I'm surprised that transpeople have the rights that they do, to be honest - they have certificates of transition and so on. Nevertheless, when conscription starts, people's tolerance of those who avoid it evaporates overnight. Mothers, wives and sisters of those who have been forced to fight resent anyone whose menfolk are not fighting, and hidden disabilities or psychological reasons are not considered - it happened here with white feathers and 'Conchie' insults. It's horrible, but perhaps understandable?

Again, we are back to conflicting rights. If someone with chronic anxiety is forced to fight because they are male, what gives someone who 'feels like a woman' the right to refuse? I don't know the answer to that, as I have been fortunate never to have lived through an invasion of my homeland. I read about this and wondered how I would feel if my son had to fight and someone else's said he was a woman and was excused, though. I don't know the answer, and am grateful for that.

Yes, the breast-groping sounds grim (although it's nothing compared to the reports about the treatment of civilians coming out of Mariupol), but this is war. There is not time or equipment to test hormone levels, even if they were a reliable indicator of anything.

It's horrible - all of it.

trisher

Isn't it funny how all the allegations of gaslighting DARVOing and every other kind of persecution you can imagine comes from the gender critical. It might be considered part of a pattern of perceived persecution. but actually it's probably just a way of trying to counter perfectly reasonable posts. If you can't question the content claim you are being persecuted. They'll probably say I'm doing something similar now. It's very hard to discuss anything under these terms. Of course some are free to throw abuse about whenever they like.

As soon as you start with 'some people' you lose the moral high ground.

Please look at GagaJo's response to my post and your reaction to it, and tell me how that doesn't fit the classic DARVO strategy?

GrannyGravy13

GagaJo

Doodledog, you can't be that lacking in awareness. If anyone (certainly not me) had the time or the inclination to go back through the posts, do you really think it's the intersectional feminist posts that do the majority of rudeness and shouting down?

Yes

Well, just by sheer numbers, you'd be wrong.

The GC on here outnumber the IF by at least 6 or 7 to 1. And given that trisher is the only IF really contributing and is rarely here, I don't see how you work that one out.

Lies, lies and statistics maybe?

There's been no abuse on the GC side trisher, but there has been an endless supply of links, data extracts from verifiable sources, copies of published papers from respected academics, references to verifiable news links to support the fact that a human being cannot change their biological sex. On the TRA side there has been far less hard empirical evidence provided but considerably more anecdotal evidence, emotional blackmail to be kind and considerate and more than a little name calling of transphobia, homophobia and being "unkind" and not allowing people to be their "authentic selves".

Natal women want to be their "authentic selves" too. They want to feel safe, protected where they need to be, able to compete in a sport where the playing field is level and not to have their identities reduced to the sum of their ovaries and it's functions. Trans women need to find their own spaces and their own identities; not demand that women move over, make space, shut up and accept that they will suffer losses of their own rights.

trisher

Whitewavemark2

trisher

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Unfortunately Whitewavemark2 where you have natal females fighting/frontline then rape and assault by the opposition becomes part of war.

It always has regardless. It is used as a weapon of war.

Women have always be subjected to this type horror in war time.

We can’t as females expect equality, but opt out of stuff we don’t like.

Just the same as those trundling along the Male/female spectrum.

But females aren't equal in Ukraine now they are permitted to leave the country.

That is a big statement, I’m sure that a Ukrainian female would disagree.

How can she disagree? Men can't leave the country, women can how is that equal?

People may or may not choose to fight

Subjecting anyone to intrusive and abusive searches for no real reason is always wrong.

Men with dependent children where there is no mother etc. can leave the country.

If you choose not to defend your country by fighting that is your prerogative, but you can help in so many ways whilst those willing to give up their lives for your freedom beaver away. You can become a medic, or a cook or any number of myriad things. But not potter off to another country to sit it out whilst hell is being released on your fellow countrymen and women.

I would add a proviso to the opt out clause. I think you would need evidence of being a pacifist and not just because you are changing from one gender to another .

Doodledog I don't know what politically motivated vested interests you are referring to.
I am referring to the ones who want to dismantle sex-based advances that women fought for for years, and replace them with so-called 'gender-based' (ie optional) ones.

There may be a few transpeople who like new converts try to change everyone else, but I would imagine most are caring people.
I don't think that transpeople want to convert anyone - that would be ridiculous - but neither do I think that the TRA movement is spearheaded by genuine transpeople. I think that it is led by anti-feminists, and most of those are not 'caring people' - not when it comes to caring about women, anyway.

It is early days in open trans medication and like most medical matters it is probably not absolutely perfect yet,
True, which is why many people feel that medication should not be given to children.

But it is a fact that children denied access to good care and counselling will resort to ordering drugs on-line and that is much more dangerous.
No, that is not 'a fact' ?. Some of them may, but not all children (by any means) are allowed to have full and free access to the Internet to the point where they can order drugs online. Most children grow up in caring families with adequate supervision, and wouldn't know where to access such drugs, which are, in any case, illegal for good reason. Before you ridicule me and suggest that I am unaware of 'reality', please show me anything that might back up that 'fact'?

Chewbacca

There's been no abuse on the GC side trisher, but there has been an endless supply of links, data extracts from verifiable sources, copies of published papers from respected academics, references to verifiable news links to support the fact that a human being cannot change their biological sex. On the TRA side there has been far less hard empirical evidence provided but considerably more anecdotal evidence, emotional blackmail to be kind and considerate and more than a little name calling of transphobia, homophobia and being "unkind" and not allowing people to be their "authentic selves".

Natal women want to be their "authentic selves" too. They want to feel safe, protected where they need to be, able to compete in a sport where the playing field is level and not to have their identities reduced to the sum of their ovaries and it's functions. Trans women need to find their own spaces and their own identities; not demand that women move over, make space, shut up and accept that they will suffer losses of their own rights.

From page 1. That do you?

Riverwalk Tue 15-Mar-22 15:28:14
Oh, give over with the faux ignorance... you're a scientist.

Ilovecheese Tue 15-Mar-22 16:32:58
VioelSky It would perhaps be better if you actually read the book before repeating other people's take on it.

Gossamerbeynon1945 Tue 15-Mar-22 16:34:34
Go and read "Women Won't Wheesht". Try educating yourself. You know and I know that no-one can change sex, and I think a lot of TRA's know, too. Gametes!

QuoteGillT57 Tue 15-Mar-22 17:29:40
Well that didn't take long. Within minutes we have someone who hadn't even read the bloody book carping on with all sorts of silly conspiracies about why J K Rowling chose to use a nom de plume. Of no relevance and no help.

Chewbacca

There's been no abuse on the GC side trisher, but there has been an endless supply of links, data extracts from verifiable sources, copies of published papers from respected academics, references to verifiable news links to support the fact that a human being cannot change their biological sex. On the TRA side there has been far less hard empirical evidence provided but considerably more anecdotal evidence, emotional blackmail to be kind and considerate and more than a little name calling of transphobia, homophobia and being "unkind" and not allowing people to be their "authentic selves".

Natal women want to be their "authentic selves" too. They want to feel safe, protected where they need to be, able to compete in a sport where the playing field is level and not to have their identities reduced to the sum of their ovaries and it's functions. Trans women need to find their own spaces and their own identities; not demand that women move over, make space, shut up and accept that they will suffer losses of their own rights.

Well said, Chewbacca.

Counting the column inches on either side of a debate is not statistical analysis, GagaJo. Nor is it evidence of anything other than support for one point of view over another. It doesn't make the minority view either right or 'shouted down', particularly when those taking that view opt out of answering basic questions.

Trisher I agreed with your post. You said
Do you not realise that men who behave like that will do the same to any women
Granted I change men to males, because some posters haven’t yet defined what a man (AHM) or a woman (AHF) exactly what a man or a woman is, but I was agreeing that males who do what you mentioned are wrong, whether they are abusing females or other males.
Any males likely to have the intention of behaving like that, should not be allowed in women safe spaces and I’m sure that you would agree with that.
I hope you aren’t referring to me as gender critical. I don’t call you inappropriate names so it would be a pleasant courtesy if you didn’t do the same.