Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

Ilovecheese Tue 15-Mar-22 16:32:58
VioletSky It would perhaps be better if you actually read the book before repeating other people's take on it.
GagaJo you really think this counts as abusive? It's a perfectly reasoned response to someone criticising a work they haven't even read. When trisher does her links, would you accept someone saying they hadn't read them but knew they were rubbish, or lies or whatever?

Doodledog

trisher

Isn't it funny how all the allegations of gaslighting DARVOing and every other kind of persecution you can imagine comes from the gender critical. It might be considered part of a pattern of perceived persecution. but actually it's probably just a way of trying to counter perfectly reasonable posts. If you can't question the content claim you are being persecuted. They'll probably say I'm doing something similar now. It's very hard to discuss anything under these terms. Of course some are free to throw abuse about whenever they like.

As soon as you start with 'some people' you lose the moral high ground.

Please look at GagaJo's response to my post and your reaction to it, and tell me how that doesn't fit the classic DARVO strategy?

oh I've never had (and never wanted) "the moral high ground". I'm just a down to earth, basics, sort of person.

I'm really not going to read or comment on whatever is going on between you and Gagajo I have enough problems trying to keep up the conversations I'm part of. And she's quite capable of answering for herself. We intersectional feminists tend to stand up for ourselves and don't need cheerleaders or yea-sayers.

I've just read the Guardian article on transgender men/women trying to flee Ukraine rather than stay and help to defend their country. The final paragraph stated “I want to be free to do what I want in life. I'd hazard a guess that 99.99% of the rest of Ukrainians want the exact same thing: hence their determination to stay and contribute in any way they can so that they can all be free to do what they want in life.

I can only imagine the responses if the very rude remarks listed above had been aimed at the GC. But aimed at IF, they're fine?

I guess that is why virtually no-one wants to engage with the GC on these threads. You hold two entirely different standards for yourself and for IF. But then, that is the belief system you buy into for trans people too, so...

I'm just a down to earth, basics, sort of person.
That’s nice trisher.

GGJ it isn’t possible to engage with people, whatever name, acronym or abbreviation they call themselves and others by, when they defend the actions of all trans women, even when others are saying that they only don’t accept the actions of ill-intentioned trans women. I don’t need to explain what those actions are you’ve contributed to enough of these posts and maybe even read some of them to know what those ill intentioned actions are.
But as trisher is wont to say, the sun is shining - and that’s nice GGJ.

I totally agree about individuals using the cloak of trans in order to commit crimes. However, given that what they really are is cis men, looking for a way to cheat the patriarchal system, surely it's better to double down on the real issue? Trans isn't the issue. Cis men are. Yet the obsession is with trans.

It's beyond me. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember when the obsession was on homosexuality, 'It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve', 'Attack on the funamental nature of marriage' and on and on

I'm really not going to read or comment on whatever is going on between you and Gagajo I have enough problems trying to keep up the conversations I'm part of.
Fair enough. I don't blame you, except that your comment about my mentioning DARVO came as a result of her ridiculous defence of the post that you accepted was based on a misunderstanding.

And she's quite capable of answering for herself.
Really? IME *GagaJo refuses to answer questions, and rarely adds anything except for support of your own posts. But you're right - you are not interchangeable.

We intersectional feminists tend to stand up for ourselves and don't need cheerleaders or yea-sayers.
? No comment.

I can only imagine the responses if the very rude remarks listed above had been aimed at the GC. But aimed at IF, they're fine?
trisher has acknowledged that her response to my post was based on a misunderstanding, but you are continuing to bluster and (presumably) stand by your gaslighting?

I guess that is why virtually no-one wants to engage with the GC on these threads.
It's possible. But it is equally possible that the opposite is true - and you are conveniently forgetting that virtually no-one is engaging with the TRAs either.

You hold two entirely different standards for yourself and for IF. But then, that is the belief system you buy into for trans people too, so...
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that? It makes no sense to me. Which standards do I (or anyone else on these threads) have for trans people? What is my 'belief system'?

Sorry - rubbish formatting above.

Also, the first half of the post was in reply to trisher, and the second to GagaJo.

It's beyond me. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember when the obsession was on homosexuality, 'It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve', 'Attack on the funamental nature of marriage' and on and on

Yawn.
Are you not going to bring in the days when people believed in possession by evil spirits? That has about as much bearing on modern-day issues as the tired old cliches about homophobia (which is very much in evidence from TRAs, but you never address that).

trisher has acknowledged that her response to my post was based on a misunderstanding, but you are continuing to bluster and (presumably) stand by your gaslighting?

I'm aware that I often disagree with you DD, but actually, that comment wasn't aimed at you on this occasion. I was refuting the claim that all the rudeness on here came from the IF, when IMO, it's from the GC and I quoted a few posts. None of which were yours.

I could go back and add one of yours if you like? ? ?

Of course it has bearing on 'modern' issues. The anti-gay stuff was going on 10 years ago. Hardly the stone ages.

And the same old same old is happening with trans, now.

Nothing changes. The process is painful.

GGJ
what happened and is still happening with gays was and is wrong. The fact that now some of the attacks come from some of the trans community is even worse.

However, the main difference between gays and ill-intentioned trans is that gay men and lesbians want freedom and acceptance to be what they are.
They, along with MOST trans do not want to take away existing rights from females who already have freedom to be what they are. They don’t seek to cheat in sport to the detriment of females, get jobs under false pretences to the detriment of females or demand access to places set up for vulnerable females unless they are vulnerable females themselves. (Note my acknowledgement that trisher may want to mention females can also be violent.)

It is worrying that you cannot see this and quite upsetting for gays and lesbians to be lumped in together by you with the
ill-intentioned trans who are doing so much damage to trans acceptance.

It is worrying that you cannot see this and quite upsetting for gays and lesbians to be lumped in together by you with the ill-intentioned trans who are doing so much damage to trans acceptance.

1) None of the gays and lesbians are GC. None. Now, I accept there will be some that are. However, you make it sound as if the entire gay community feel this way. They don't.

2) I think 'ill-intentioned trans' are in a tiny minority. Probably a fraction of less than 1%. And that tiny number will include (as I said above) cis men, using it as a disguise to commit crime.

But the GC community would rather focus on that tiny percentage, which includes cis men/criminals. I just don't see that logic.

Major error in my typing

1) Should read, 'None of the gays and lesbians I know...'

What is 'the GC community?'

I'm still wondering what my 'belief system' (according to you) is based on, and to what 'standards' I supposedly hold transpeople.

Well, clearly, on GN there is a GC community. The most prolific commenters on here form it.

DD your belief system seems to be anything that GGJ etc don’t approve of.
Did I say any lesbians or gays are Good Christians? Nothing you say above GGJ disproves my points, but I’m sure you enjoyed trying.

GagaJo Please define what you mean by GC. We're told by some TRAs that homosexuality is no longer it's literal meaning ie same sex attraction and is now some weird same gender (stereotype?) attraction. How dare you place a label on other people on here? You lectured me on that very subject just a few days ago, told me I can only label myself. Is it one rule for IFs and another for anybody else?

If being ’gender critical’ means that I criticise the notion that gender (which I define as a socially constructed set of norms) can or should take precedence over sex, then yes, I am GC. I don’t see myself as belonging to a community of GC people though, and I’m still struggling to understand what constitutes my‘belief system’ or the standards to which I apparently hold transpeople.

If "gender critical" means that I don't blindly accept that human scientific biological and physiological facts are wrong and humans can change sex whenever they want to; I'm gender critical.
If gender critical means that I protest at the erosion of my hard fought for identity, rights and safety; I'm gender critical.
If gender critical means that I won't shut up, move over, make space and be kind towards those who seek to silence and minimise me; I'm gender critical.
If gender critical means that I raise my concerns and doubts that having anyone with a penis and balls, in the same spaces that vulnerable women are occupying; I'm gender critical.
If gender critical means that I raise my concerns that some men are using their right to claim that they're a trans woman in order to harm women and children; I'm gender critical.
If gender critical means that I object to being attacked, assaulted and verbally abused by some trans activists because I dared to walk down a street and say that I am a woman; I'm gender critical.
If gender critical means that I object and protest at having the language used to describe me as nothing more than the sum of my body parts; I'm gender critical.
If gender critical means that I object and protest that my identity has been reduced to such a level that I'm identified as a "cis woman" or a "natal woman", and if I object to that I'm a terf or transphobic; I'm gender critical.
If gender critical means that I have the intellect, intelligence and insight to be able to recognise and acknowledge that not everyone who is in the trans journey mean women harm; I'm gender critical.

And proud to be so.

Mollygo

DD your belief system seems to be anything that GGJ etc don’t approve of.
Did I say any lesbians or gays are Good Christians? Nothing you say above GGJ disproves my points, but I’m sure you enjoyed trying.

Don't flatter yourself. I'm not interested in trying.

I'm not expressing my real opinion why, because I'm not prepared to resort to being rude to someone I don't know.

trisher

Isn't it funny how all the allegations of gaslighting DARVOing and every other kind of persecution you can imagine comes from the gender critical. It might be considered part of a pattern of perceived persecution. but actually it's probably just a way of trying to counter perfectly reasonable posts. If you can't question the content claim you are being persecuted. They'll probably say I'm doing something similar now. It's very hard to discuss anything under these terms. Of course some are free to throw abuse about whenever they like.

I agree with you. It's very interesting to watch

I'm only quoting and agreeing as I get a very short lunch break, before going back into the classroom with 5 year old. You would think I would give myself mpr of a break from those with immature discussion techniques lol

We intersectional feminists tend to stand up for ourselves and don't need cheerleaders or yea-sayers.
???????? or as some prefer lol

Can't answer a question with a modicum of intelligence? Claim you have no interest. Can't define the words you use? Just ignore.

It's a lovely sunny day, out I go.

Chewbacca I agree with your post 100% ?????