Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

FarNorth
The government equalities office has come out with some rubbish, by the way, because of its confusion about what sex and gender are.
Yes (Sighs?‍?) Sometimes I wonder whether they’ve been reading what’s here on social media. There’s a few confused posters who think saying you’re a woman makes you female.

Doodledog I don't know what sort of premises you frequent but most of the places I know have pretty strict security in all places and anyone male, female, or trans will be ejected if they cause any bother. There are even women security officers now some of whom deal with stroppy women and some who actually throw men out. Gender neutral doesn't mean dangerous anymore than women means safe.
So we need to wait until someone 'causes bother' before they are asked to leave? Until my friend's attacker was actively attacking her he hadn't 'caused bother'.

There have been female security officer for a long time - my daughter was one when she was a student. I'm not sure of your point there, really.

Mollygo

FarNorth
The government equalities office has come out with some rubbish, by the way, because of its confusion about what sex and gender are.
Yes (Sighs?‍?) Sometimes I wonder whether they’ve been reading what’s here on social media. There’s a few confused posters who think saying you’re a woman makes you female.

That'sfunny because no one I know has ever claimed women are all female. But there have been quite a few people who only recognise certain people as women. Their downfall comes of course when transmen are taken into account. Because transmen identify as men, but must according to the male/female argument be classed as female and use female facilities. The result is of course people of a masculine appearance in female spaces and I can't understand why anyone who is fearful of men would find a transwoman frightening, although she looks like a woman, rather than a transman who looks like a man. As for loos well a man could just walk into the ladies and say he's a transman.

FarNorth

I posted this on another topic and I think it applies here too.

'I think people support an ideology that is likely to harm them because they lack imagination and can't conceive of their own situation being threatened.
I'll always be all right, Jack.'

The implication there is that we're too dim to work that out.

Rather than just seeing things differently. Which is a bit insulting really.

Chewbacca

Just to let you know MollyGo I both read, and speak Mandarin.

Seriously impressed!

Trisher, do you honestly think that in most cases people can't tell someone's sex - regardless of how they are dressed?

You don't have to be actively scrutinising or looking for 'anomalies', but when you see transpeople on University Challenge, or on the bus, in the pub, or anywhere else, you can tell.

In most cases all that happens is a fleeting thought - possibly instinctive - that something doesn't look quite right, then you realise and carry on watching TV, drinking your drink, reading on the bus or whatever else you were doing. It doesn't matter, and it's not important, but people can tell, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

As for the idea that everyone finds transpeople frightening - it's just not true. As has been said over and over. It is not 'ordinary' transpeople who give any pause at all - it is the ones who try to silence women, who force their way into things, who want to change the language, to cheat at sport, and so on. They are the ones people complain about. They spoil things for the transpeople who just go about their lives, as well as for female athletes, women from sex-segregated cultures, female prisoners, vulnerable hospital patients and so on.

I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

On the sporting issue I saw a video of transwoman Caitlyn Jenner being interviewed, in which she said Lia Thomas shouldn't be in women's sports. As a former sportsman I think Caitlyn would have some knowledge about sporting fairness. The interviewer raised that Caitlyn had been invited to participate in a women's golf event but had declined saying it wouldn't be fair. Caitlyn said even with no testosterone advantage she had not lost her power, strength and build and would be able to hit the ball 100 yards further than any of the women. Now that's being a true sport.

Doodledog

Trisher, do you honestly think that in most cases people can't tell someone's sex - regardless of how they are dressed?

You don't have to be actively scrutinising or looking for 'anomalies', but when you see transpeople on University Challenge, or on the bus, in the pub, or anywhere else, you can tell.

In most cases all that happens is a fleeting thought - possibly instinctive - that something doesn't look quite right, then you realise and carry on watching TV, drinking your drink, reading on the bus or whatever else you were doing. It doesn't matter, and it's not important, but people can tell, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

As for the idea that everyone finds transpeople frightening - it's just not true. As has been said over and over. It is not 'ordinary' transpeople who give any pause at all - it is the ones who try to silence women, who force their way into things, who want to change the language, to cheat at sport, and so on. They are the ones people complain about. They spoil things for the transpeople who just go about their lives, as well as for female athletes, women from sex-segregated cultures, female prisoners, vulnerable hospital patients and so on.

I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

Watch Pose Doodledog I challenge you to identify the transwomen in it.

I've seen it. But people in a TV drama are made up, lit and generally shown to be the part they are playing, aren't they? Film makers are very good at assisting us to suspend disbelief.

Real life is rather different.

I've not seen it, but trisher, the fact that a few transwomen may pass without a second glance doesn't prove that all or even most transwomen pass. The transwoman in "The Crying Game" was indiscernible from a natal woman until they showed their penis. That is the exception, most definitely not the rule.

Doodledog

I've seen it. But people in a TV drama are made up, lit and generally shown to be the part they are playing, aren't they? Film makers are very good at assisting us to suspend disbelief.

Real life is rather different.

Some of the actors are transgender in real life Doodledog. They are not instantly recognisable as such.
But I'm sure you have both said that transwomen are instantly recognisable. Are you now agreeing that many of them aren't?

The best comment from trisher so far. (Worth a screen shot!)

Trisher says That'sfunny because no one I know has ever claimed women are all female
Trisher , there is no proof of what the people you ‘know’ say. They could say anything and we wouldn’t ‘know’. So that leaves you free to say something which may or may not be true.

So what have we been saying on here?
Oh I forgot, you don’t really ‘know’ anyone on here. So you don’t have to count what any other posters say.

By the same token, I don’t know anyone who says transwomen are women, or who say women don’t need safe spaces, but there’s lots of them on here.
Only the people who amend language to suit their purpose say all women aren’t female. Transwomen Are Transwomen!

Transwomen are male.

Women are female.
Only females can be women.
Women are all female.
Women who aren’t female are not women.

Now go ahead and say you don’t know anyone who would say that!????
Good one trisher!

Mollygo

The best comment from trisher so far. (Worth a screen shot!)

Trisher says That'sfunny because no one I know has ever claimed women are all female
Trisher , there is no proof of what the people you ‘know’ say. They could say anything and we wouldn’t ‘know’. So that leaves you free to say something which may or may not be true.

So what have we been saying on here?
Oh I forgot, you don’t really ‘know’ anyone on here. So you don’t have to count what any other posters say.

By the same token, I don’t know anyone who says transwomen are women, or who say women don’t need safe spaces, but there’s lots of them on here.
Only the people who amend language to suit their purpose say all women aren’t female. Transwomen Are Transwomen!

Transwomen are male.

Women are female.
Only females can be women.
Women are all female.
Women who aren’t female are not women.

Now go ahead and say you don’t know anyone who would say that!????
Good one trisher!

Just one comment What about transmen?
Sssh we don't talk about them!

Goodness, I can't remember a time bing out an about where I looked at anyone and suspected they were trans..

Which is odd given that this could be 1% of the population

It used to be train spotting

Now we have trans spotting lol

What worries me is when posters appear to think TW harming women is funny.

Mollygo

What worries me is when posters appear to think TW harming women is funny.

If you mean me, that's a completely awful thing to say to say to me and I hope you have the grace to take it back.

Mollygo

What worries me is when posters appear to think TW harming women is funny.

So now someone does think it's transwomen harming women. I thought we all accepted it wasn't. (Be careful Mollygo your phobia is showing)

Let's hope that whole statement is retracted then

trisher

Doodledog

I've seen it. But people in a TV drama are made up, lit and generally shown to be the part they are playing, aren't they? Film makers are very good at assisting us to suspend disbelief.

Real life is rather different.

Some of the actors are transgender in real life Doodledog. They are not instantly recognisable as such.
But I'm sure you have both said that transwomen are instantly recognisable. Are you now agreeing that many of them aren't?

No. I'm saying nothing of the kind. I'm saying that the actors (transgender or otherwise) are made up to look beautiful (and they are), which is not the same as real life. Even I could be made to look presentable if I had a team of make-up artists and good lighting to work with.

This is such hard work at times.

My GD’s expertise in stage and ordinary make up even made me willing to be photographed. A team of experts working on actors are paid to do that job.

Actually trisher I think you’ll find that posters are more concerned about those who make no effort to disguise the “sex assigned to them at birth”, but still claim to be women and demand access to areas or sports provided for females, for nefarious purposes. (Thus adding lies to their other evil doings.)

Mollygo are you going to take back what you said?

I'm tired of being told that personal attacks don't happen only to be ignored when I point out something that states an untrue fact about my thoughts/feelings

So now what you seem to be saying is that transwomen can't be idenified providing they have the right sort of make up and styling. Which means if they do the work you won't know.

The Emperor's New Clothes

trisher

So now what you seem to be saying is that transwomen can't be idenified providing they have the right sort of make up and styling. Which means if they do the work you won't know.

Jeez.

No. I am saying that TV is not the same as real life. If the story called for the characters to be vampires, that is what they would be. Or zombies, or anything else called for by the plot.

TV drama is not an example of how transpeople are not usually identifiable as such. It is an example of what happens in that particular story.

There are whole forums dedicated to trans people asking if they "pass"

They give each other advice

Sadly this is often asked so they can engage in the world safely

A lot of the time, I'd say they pass and I wouldn't look twice

But then if I did I'd sort of be judgemental about other people's appearance randomly squinting at people and given how diverse we are I could be very wrong