Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

Doodledog

Trisher, do you honestly think that in most cases people can't tell someone's sex - regardless of how they are dressed?

You don't have to be actively scrutinising or looking for 'anomalies', but when you see transpeople on University Challenge, or on the bus, in the pub, or anywhere else, you can tell.

In most cases all that happens is a fleeting thought - possibly instinctive - that something doesn't look quite right, then you realise and carry on watching TV, drinking your drink, reading on the bus or whatever else you were doing. It doesn't matter, and it's not important, but people can tell, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

As for the idea that everyone finds transpeople frightening - it's just not true. As has been said over and over. It is not 'ordinary' transpeople who give any pause at all - it is the ones who try to silence women, who force their way into things, who want to change the language, to cheat at sport, and so on. They are the ones people complain about. They spoil things for the transpeople who just go about their lives, as well as for female athletes, women from sex-segregated cultures, female prisoners, vulnerable hospital patients and so on.

I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

This is what I said. Note the bit that points out In most cases all that happens is a fleeting thought - possibly instinctive - that something doesn't look quite right, then you realise and carry on watching TV, drinking your drink, reading on the bus or whatever else you were doing. It doesn't matter, and it's not important, but people can tell, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

It doesn't matter, and it's not important. It's a fleeting thought. But ignore that, and drone on and on about trans spotting, and judgement, and try to trip me up by suggesting that I am some sort of obsessive.

I'm losing track of the numerous threads on this topic tonight, but if anyone had any doubts about who goes on the attack in these discussions, or who is trying to make it so difficult to post anything for fear of having it twisted into something offensive, they can see the truth for themselves.

Doodledog

trisher

So now what you seem to be saying is that transwomen can't be idenified providing they have the right sort of make up and styling. Which means if they do the work you won't know.

Jeez.

No. I am saying that TV is not the same as real life. If the story called for the characters to be vampires, that is what they would be. Or zombies, or anything else called for by the plot.

TV drama is not an example of how transpeople are not usually identifiable as such. It is an example of what happens in that particular story.

But the actors are trans in real life Doodledog and I don't believe you would know which are or aren't trans. They live ordinary lives as transwomen. They don't dress up or pretend to be anything. Actors are real people you know.

It's also based on real events by the way.
Thinking about when it is set the people it is based on lived their whole lives as transpeople,they'll be in their 60s and 70s now. And they have caused no harm to anyone.

And they have caused no harm to anyone. Most men don't cause harm to anyone, but still we find it desirable to exclude them from certain areas of female life. There is the question of privacy, dignity and comfort of females. My husband and sons would absent themselves from any areas that could possibly cause discomfort to a female. That's because they're decent human beings. Any male who wouldn't absent themselves from these areas needs further examination.

Rosie51
. . . and they have caused no harm to anyone.
Most men don't cause harm to anyone, but still we find it desirable to exclude them from certain areas of female life. There is the question of privacy, dignity and comfort of females. My husband and sons would absent themselves from any areas that could possibly cause discomfort to a female. That's because they're decent human beings. Any male who wouldn't absent themselves from these areas needs further examination.
Males in my family would do the same as your husband and sons, and for the same reason you give.

Rosie51 and Mollygo, same in my family and friendship group.
By causing harm, I’d anyone seriously suggesting that the 200 trans activists demonstrating against the feminist meeting in Manchester didn’t intend to harass, threaten and stir up anxiety? That’s causing harm. Demonstrate of course but don’t threaten women who have a different point of view

Absolutely! All decent men would do the same - whether or not they are trans - and particularly if they would cause no harm to anyone - it is the harmful ones who’d be more likely to force themselves into places where they make others feel uncomfortable.

And yes, trisher. Of course I know that actors are real people ?. But what you see on screen is not real. Here is the late Heath Ledger before and after make-up (and the ‘before’ shot is not exactly candid).

*no one I know has ever claimed women are all female.*

Gosh trisher you do come out with some corkers!

Their downfall comes of course when transmen are taken into account. Because transmen identify as men, but must according to the male/female argument be classed as female and use female facilities.

If a transman passes as male and wants to use the male facilities, the only possible danger is to themselves so it's up to them if they want to do it.
I haven't heard anyone say that transmen must use female facilities.

Transmen in prison are not housed with men, however, because of the risk to themselves.

But that is applying logic and common sense, FN.

Rather than a doctrinaire approach, that is.

FarNorth

^Their downfall comes of course when transmen are taken into account. Because transmen identify as men, but must according to the male/female argument be classed as female and use female facilities.^

If a transman passes as male and wants to use the male facilities, the only possible danger is to themselves so it's up to them if they want to do it.
I haven't heard anyone say that transmen must use female facilities.

Transmen in prison are not housed with men, however, because of the risk to themselves.

But is that really fair FarNorth if someone is asking for single sex facilities shouldn't that apply to all single sex facilities. So transmen might prefer to use the male facility (just as transwomen would prefer to use the female) but as they are female, should be using the female. Otherwise it's just plain discrimination.

I think its probably up to men t express their views on that issue, I have seen many gay men express concerns about women in their spaces, dating sites etc.
No feminist I know would think it a good idea for transmen to be placed in male prisons

So do you think transmen should be placed in male prisons for exampe trisher?

Rosie51

^And they have caused no harm to anyone.^ Most men don't cause harm to anyone, but still we find it desirable to exclude them from certain areas of female life. There is the question of privacy, dignity and comfort of females. My husband and sons would absent themselves from any areas that could possibly cause discomfort to a female. That's because they're decent human beings. Any male who wouldn't absent themselves from these areas needs further examination.

But these have been transgender since the 1980s and have used women's facilities without any attacks or any complaints. So it can be done. It has been done. Regrettable as the recent attacks may be they do not show the full picture which has been peaceful and accepting.

Can you define 'discrimination', trisher?

Isn't it a bit like equality, in that applying exactly the same rules to all does not result in fairness?

There are times when it makes sense to discriminate - eg putting age limits on the age of consent, or giving maternity leave to new mothers. Doesn't housing transmen in female prisons come under that? It is perfectly 'fair' to say that prisoners should be housed by sex - regardless of whether they are male or female or of how they 'define'.

Sorry - that should have been 'identify'. I knew it was wrong as I typed it ?

Galaxy

So do you think transmen should be placed in male prisons for exampe trisher?

No I think prisons are absolutely appallingly run and there shoud be a complete over haul of the system . But at present I think the only solution for transpeople is a trangender wing. and seperate facilities for transmen and transwomen.

Yes, men should pipe up if they feel their privacy is being invaded.
They are much more likely to be heeded than women so perhaps something would then be done to ensure privacy, dignity and safety for all.

Single cubicles with sinks would be best.
I'm surprised you haven't complained about the discrimination involved in those being provided only to people with disabilities, trisher.

So at least we agree on prisons, then.

Regrettable as the recent attacks may be they do not show the full picture which has been peaceful and accepting.
Thank you for that post trisher. Many on here have acknowledged that few men or transwomen caused harm either in the past or even now.
The problem is that the full picture shows abuse, attacks, and damaging effects by some transgender people on females now. However small the number of attacks doesn’t make it less important.
I hope you’d agree that we must have things in place to prevent this potential abuse and give females the protection to which they ought to be entitled. Saying it shouldn’t happen is no protection.

And of course, the even fuller picture is the violence and abuse that Trans people have to live with.

Acknowledging both sides is vital.

trisher the transgender wing would also protect trans women from discriminatory women.

Sadly that's a need at the moment

So you would provide a trans wing to protect trans whilst removing safe spaces from women.
I suppose that sort of logic reflects intersectional feminism.
Feminists who don’t need a qualifying adjective have never said trans should not have safe spaces for trans.

Mollygo if that's also directed at me that's yet another untrue statement. I've never advocated for women to lose safe spaces when needed.

Males can be female. Lie
Sex can be changed. Lie

These are the only seriously untrue statements on all these threads.
All the other tedious ‘if’ statements do nothing to protect either women or transgender people.

Mollygo

So you would provide a trans wing to protect trans whilst removing safe spaces from women.
I suppose that sort of logic reflects intersectional feminism.
Feminists who don’t need a qualifying adjective have never said trans should not have safe spaces for trans.

The adjective given by sociologists to 2nd wave feminists was white liberal feminists. Better to pick your own label than let someone label you as exclusionist.