Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

trisher

Doodledog

GagaJo

What the Barbican's website says is that it offers gendered & gender neutral. It doesn't state that they've removed the women's option.

Well it wouldn't, would it?

Here's what they have to say about it. Basically that women have been pushed aside to make life more accommodating for trans and non-binary visitors. No question of men making space for them - oh no.

I've just read that. Here's a revolutionary idea. Why don't the women go into the ones with a urinal when there is a queue? If they all go there will be no question of anyone feeling unsafe. Except perhaps the men using the urinal who really won't want a gang of women looking at them (some of them won't be able to pee!!)

Are you advocating that for women whose religions or cultures would not permit that, or do you just not care that this is yet another venue they won't be able to attend because of mixed loos? Do women with religious or cultural variations from the "anything goes" mentality really deserve to return to the urinary leash? Some feminism that basically tells them to get lost.

The Barbican and other commercial venues will be guided by whether or not their takings are affected. The same with shops and their changing rooms. That is, as long as any trans advocates don't tell them lies about it being compulsory not to allow women anywhere they can be on their own.

Here's a revolutionary idea. Why not stick to male and female toilets and then have one single cubicle for gender neutral. I can't believe people will be queuing to use it, there can't be that many transgender people.

Rosie51

trisher

Doodledog

GagaJo

What the Barbican's website says is that it offers gendered & gender neutral. It doesn't state that they've removed the women's option.

Well it wouldn't, would it?

Here's what they have to say about it. Basically that women have been pushed aside to make life more accommodating for trans and non-binary visitors. No question of men making space for them - oh no.

I've just read that. Here's a revolutionary idea. Why don't the women go into the ones with a urinal when there is a queue? If they all go there will be no question of anyone feeling unsafe. Except perhaps the men using the urinal who really won't want a gang of women looking at them (some of them won't be able to pee!!)

Are you advocating that for women whose religions or cultures would not permit that, or do you just not care that this is yet another venue they won't be able to attend because of mixed loos? Do women with religious or cultural variations from the "anything goes" mentality really deserve to return to the urinary leash? Some feminism that basically tells them to get lost.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything in fact using the mens and leaving those with religious beliefs to use the ladies would benefit everyone.
Oh how I miss radical women who challenged everything and refused to accept rules and regulations

Chestnut

Here's a revolutionary idea. Why not stick to male and female toilets and then have one single cubicle for gender neutral. I can't believe people will be queuing to use it, there can't be that many transgender people.

The Barbican will have a significant number of families and need spaces dads can use with daughters and mums with sons.

Chestnut

Here's a revolutionary idea. Why not stick to male and female toilets and then have one single cubicle for gender neutral. I can't believe people will be queuing to use it, there can't be that many transgender people.
Because that wouldn’t facilitate the opportunity for some TW to perv on or harm females AND, the “someones” wouldn’t like it.

trisher

Chestnut

Here's a revolutionary idea. Why not stick to male and female toilets and then have one single cubicle for gender neutral. I can't believe people will be queuing to use it, there can't be that many transgender people.

The Barbican will have a significant number of families and need spaces dads can use with daughters and mums with sons.

I'm not just talking about the Barbican but in general. Why the big fuss, just make one toilet available for transgender people and leave the rest alone. I can't understand all the drama, or the need to provide so many toilets for them.

oh how I miss radical women who challenged everything and refused to accept rules and regulations

Where to start with this one. I’m all for challenging nonsense which includes the idea that women being shouted down by transactivists is in any way radical. It’s oppressive, abusive, unnecessary and misogynistic.

Iam64

*oh how I miss radical women who challenged everything and refused to accept rules and regulations*

Where to start with this one. I’m all for challenging nonsense which includes the idea that women being shouted down by transactivists is in any way radical. It’s oppressive, abusive, unnecessary and misogynistic.

Agreed, Iam. And it's so condescending in tone, too.

I'm trying to get my head around the mindset that hankers back to some 'golden age' when women wanting basic rights had to fight against the rules and regulations that oppressed them, and would have the rules reinstated in order that they can be 'challenged' all over again. What price progress?

Iam64

*oh how I miss radical women who challenged everything and refused to accept rules and regulations*

Where to start with this one. I’m all for challenging nonsense which includes the idea that women being shouted down by transactivists is in any way radical. It’s oppressive, abusive, unnecessary and misogynistic.

Well answered Iam64.
The funny thing is, I miss them too, because they wouldn’t put up with any of the disenfranchising of females. Actually there are some, Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater, JKR, but they would be perceived as radical by “someone” because they think it’s radical to erode the rights of the sex they purport to be.

Just to clarify
they would be perceived as radical by “someone” because they (the someones) think it’s radical to erode the rights of the sex they purport to be

It's wrong to eradicate anyone's rights

Whether we agree that rights iare actually being eroded is just a disagreement

Saying you can't change sex/gender is just an excuse because people are legally doing so regardless.

有人说话了吗

Chestnut

trisher

Chestnut

Here's a revolutionary idea. Why not stick to male and female toilets and then have one single cubicle for gender neutral. I can't believe people will be queuing to use it, there can't be that many transgender people.

The Barbican will have a significant number of families and need spaces dads can use with daughters and mums with sons.

I'm not just talking about the Barbican but in general. Why the big fuss, just make one toilet available for transgender people and leave the rest alone. I can't understand all the drama, or the need to provide so many toilets for them.

Because families need toilets parents can use with their children. Dads quite often take daughters out and have to decide if they take them into the gents or worry about what they are doing in the ladies. It isn't just transgender people who need gender neutral toilets

trisher

Rosie51

trisher

Doodledog

GagaJo

What the Barbican's website says is that it offers gendered & gender neutral. It doesn't state that they've removed the women's option.

Well it wouldn't, would it?

Here's what they have to say about it. Basically that women have been pushed aside to make life more accommodating for trans and non-binary visitors. No question of men making space for them - oh no.

I've just read that. Here's a revolutionary idea. Why don't the women go into the ones with a urinal when there is a queue? If they all go there will be no question of anyone feeling unsafe. Except perhaps the men using the urinal who really won't want a gang of women looking at them (some of them won't be able to pee!!)

Are you advocating that for women whose religions or cultures would not permit that, or do you just not care that this is yet another venue they won't be able to attend because of mixed loos? Do women with religious or cultural variations from the "anything goes" mentality really deserve to return to the urinary leash? Some feminism that basically tells them to get lost.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything in fact using the mens and leaving those with religious beliefs to use the ladies would benefit everyone.
Oh how I miss radical women who challenged everything and refused to accept rules and regulations

When will you accept that trans identified males, transwomen, using the female toilets places a urinary leash on women whose religion or culture would prevent them using those facilities? Intersectional feminists giving them the two finger salute once again. They must be the 'wrong sort of women'.

As no-one can tell by looking who is trans I can't see that it would be a problem. Of course a transman using the ladies might worry them a little but I suspect you weren't thinking about them.

trisher

As no-one can tell by looking who is trans I can't see that it would be a problem. Of course a transman using the ladies might worry them a little but I suspect you weren't thinking about them.

People can very often tell by looking, trisher. What people do in those circumstances is weigh up the odds that the person who is using the female loo when they are male is likely to be a threat, and the odds are that they won't be. If they smile, or make friendly small talk, or generally behave as most women do in those semi-social situations, most of us would respond in kind and think no more about it. That's fine - live and let live, and it all happens almost subconsciously anyway.

If, on the other hand, they stroke their beard, leer and make a lascivious comment and they are in a women's loo, there is the opportunity to get security or someone to have them evicted. In a so-called 'gender neutral' one, however, women would just have to put up with it. And I don't care if that doesn't happen often - once is too often. I have posted before about a friend who was sexually assaulted in a pub Ladies room. Luckily another woman came in, saw a man in there, and got help before my friend was raped. In a 'gender neutral' space who knows what might have happened.

Just to let you know MollyGo I both read, and speak Mandarin.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-153503-screenshot-20220325-213611.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-693602-screenshot-20220325-213550.jpg

This is what the government equalities office has to say

I can't remember which thread it's meant to go on

Chewbacca

Just to let you know MollyGo I both read, and speak Mandarin.

Then you’ll appreciate exactly what I meant Chewbacca! ??

My grandson got pretty good at Mandarin, I'll ask him when I see him tomorrow.

Doodledog

trisher

As no-one can tell by looking who is trans I can't see that it would be a problem. Of course a transman using the ladies might worry them a little but I suspect you weren't thinking about them.

People can very often tell by looking, trisher. What people do in those circumstances is weigh up the odds that the person who is using the female loo when they are male is likely to be a threat, and the odds are that they won't be. If they smile, or make friendly small talk, or generally behave as most women do in those semi-social situations, most of us would respond in kind and think no more about it. That's fine - live and let live, and it all happens almost subconsciously anyway.

If, on the other hand, they stroke their beard, leer and make a lascivious comment and they are in a women's loo, there is the opportunity to get security or someone to have them evicted. In a so-called 'gender neutral' one, however, women would just have to put up with it. And I don't care if that doesn't happen often - once is too often. I have posted before about a friend who was sexually assaulted in a pub Ladies room. Luckily another woman came in, saw a man in there, and got help before my friend was raped. In a 'gender neutral' space who knows what might have happened.

Doodledog I don't know what sort of premises you frequent but most of the places I know have pretty strict security in all places and anyone male, female, or trans will be ejected if they cause any bother. There are even women security officers now some of whom deal with stroppy women and some who actually throw men out. Gender neutral doesn't mean dangerous anymore than women means safe.

VioletSky

This is what the government equalities office has to say

I can't remember which thread it's meant to go on

"the sex in which they present"

How much presenting does someone have to do?
Skirt & make up means person is a woman? And is still the case along with a beard?
Flat cap & pipe means a man, maybe?

What if the skirt & beard person goes into the men's?
Should they be corrected for that?

(Don't bother telling me about pcos. )

The government equalities office has come out with some rubbish, by the way, because of its confusion about what sex and gender are.

even women security officers. Just imagine that, in 2022.

anyone, male, female, or trans will be ejected if they cause any bother. Doodledog friend was sexually assaulted, luckily another woman saw what was happening so called for help. Phew, that’s all ok then

I posted this on another topic and I think it applies here too.

'I think people support an ideology that is likely to harm them because they lack imagination and can't conceive of their own situation being threatened.
I'll always be all right, Jack.'