Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

volver

Keira? I'm going to assume that's a typo

Freudian slip methinks!

FarNorth

GagaJo gender fluid people are still female or male, however they choose to present themselves.
What is your difficulty with understanding that?

It's none of my (or your) business what is under a person's clothing.
What is your difficulty there?

If a woman had been described as looking like something from the Les Dawson show, lots of women on here would be rightly angry. But say it about a trans woman, and that's acceptable, apparently.

It wouldn't, IMO. And I'm not defending the threads or the comments. But I will suggest (genuinely, not disingenuously) that for many people this is a learning curve, and there may be an assumption from some that a man who wants to transition must be doing so out of a desire to be as 'feminine' as possible.

The first transwoman I met was many years ago (early 90s) was surgically transitioned, and she stood out in the workplace because she was dishevelled and came to work in leggings, tee shirts and trainers when most women wore dresses. Her hair was roughly tied back, and she wore no make-up. A lot of people (me included) wondered why she had bothered to transition, given her apparent reluctance to look like a woman. Now that I have met a lot more transpeople, I realise that this was a foolish way to think, and that they are as disparate as anyone else when it comes to attitudes to personal grooming. We live and learn.

I don't think that jumping on people, as opposed to pointing out that they might be looking at it the wrong way, is particularly helpful, or conducive to encouraging tolerance.

My take on this is as the grandmother of a child who, at age 15, chose to live, dress and act as someone of the opposite sex and has done so for several years now.

All I know is that I love them just the same, respect them just the same and recognise them as a good and kind person. That is enough for me.

I do not always get the pronouns right when speaking to or about them - and they have the grace to laugh it off as "poor old grandma"! I do have huge concerns about the moment when they might choose more physical or surgical options - inevitable I guess - I saw this dear person born and held them in my arms within minutes - perfectly formed and dearly loved.

I do have fears for the path they have chosen and the difficulties that might arise along the way; but college and friends have been supportive in a low key and natural way and I am glad they live in a time when that can happen.

The jury is out for me on women-only spaces. As always it basically depends on the individual - if they are decent thoughtful people they will consider other's possible feelings. Sadly of course this cannot be relied upon from anyone, whether they are transgender or not; and movements for freedoms can begin somewhat stridently and lacking nuance.

I am glad that my DGC is growing up accepted for who they feel they are and sincerely hope that some of the more extreme factions will die down over time. Look how gay marriage has crept its way in as unworthy of comment now? I hope for the same for transgender in the future.

Most of the time, it is none of my business.

However, if I have been told that I am in a single-sex female-only place, eg hospital ward, DV refuge or prison, I want it to be genuinely single-sex.
I don't want to find that a man is masquerading as a woman there but I don't care how he presents himself elsewhere.

It wouldn't, IMO. And I'm not defending the threads or the comments. But I will suggest (genuinely, not disingenuously) that for many people this is a learning curve, and there may be an assumption from some that a man who wants to transition must be doing so out of a desire to be as 'feminine' as possible.

I suppose my perspective Doodledog is that the implication is that trans women are drawing attention to themselves by dressing in a way which is not "acceptable" to other people. I don't really mean acceptable, but I can't think of another word.

The trans women who are dressing the way that we expect a woman to dress and look just get on the bus and nobody notices.

Rhyannon Styles, in his book The New Girl, explains that he was working as a drag queen when he decided to transition.
To begin with, his look was too exaggerated because of his drag experience and he had to look properly at women to see how to dress and do makeup as they did.

I have talked to my 16 year old GS and her friends about this. I can see that for this young generation there is acceptance of trans people and they see them as just people first and foremost.

Trans activists are doing more harm to trans people by trying to undermine women.
As this younger generation are more accepting of people and their right to live
as they wish then these contentious issues will hopefully be resolved.

Luckygirl3 you are in a difficult position.
I don't think I could use wrong-sex pronouns for anyone, even a close relative.

The trans women who are dressing the way that we expect a woman to dress and look just get on the bus and nobody notices.

Yes, and many of us have said over and over on these threads that (a) these people are not at issue, and (b) that they suffer as well as women from the antics of TRAs.

I will speak for myself here, but others have said similar - I am nothing but supportive of transwomen who just get on with life (regardless of how they dress). It is when TRAs start insisting that women are called 'bleeders', 'breeders' or 'people with cervixes' etc, and that lesbians are transphobic when they don't want to have sex with men in dresses and beards who say they are women and so on (see threads passim) that we get exercised.

Luckygirl3

My take on this is as the grandmother of a child who, at age 15, chose to live, dress and act as someone of the opposite sex and has done so for several years now.

All I know is that I love them just the same, respect them just the same and recognise them as a good and kind person. That is enough for me.

I do not always get the pronouns right when speaking to or about them - and they have the grace to laugh it off as "poor old grandma"! I do have huge concerns about the moment when they might choose more physical or surgical options - inevitable I guess - I saw this dear person born and held them in my arms within minutes - perfectly formed and dearly loved.

I do have fears for the path they have chosen and the difficulties that might arise along the way; but college and friends have been supportive in a low key and natural way and I am glad they live in a time when that can happen.

The jury is out for me on women-only spaces. As always it basically depends on the individual - if they are decent thoughtful people they will consider other's possible feelings. Sadly of course this cannot be relied upon from anyone, whether they are transgender or not; and movements for freedoms can begin somewhat stridently and lacking nuance.

I am glad that my DGC is growing up accepted for who they feel they are and sincerely hope that some of the more extreme factions will die down over time. Look how gay marriage has crept its way in as unworthy of comment now? I hope for the same for transgender in the future.

I am in the same situation with a very close family member who I love dearly.

They do not want to hurt or offend anybody, just live their lives in peace, looking as they choose to do.

I'm pretty sure that's all the majority of the trans people wish to do....

I don't think it is transwomen or indeed transactivists who are using "people with cervixes" isn't it an effort to make sure young transmen continue to have smear tests?

The whole 'bleeders', 'breeders' or 'people with cervixes' etc - and indeed "chest feeding" is part of the swing of the pendulum that always happens at the beginning of a freedom movement - it will swing back and settle somewhere a bit more sane in the fullness of time.

luckygirl and Dee thank you for adding your voices to this.

You both have a kind, common sense approach

I do remember the outrage from some about what would happen when gay sex was made legal. Some forecast the destruction of the family. Years later it turns out that what gay people want is pretty much the same as most others, a loving relationship, and for some, a family and children.

Lucky girl, the trouble is when some of these changes become policy or even enshrined in law.

I understand completely that you are protective of your grandchild - I would be the same. My own perspective, for what that’s worth, is that transpeople would face far less discrimination and/or fear if they asked for acceptance as transpeople rather than insisting that they have changed sex.

Luckygirl13 and Dee1012, Thank-you for sharing your information on your GC and because they have chosen to live differently than "society dictates" on appearance clothing for each particular sex.

Luckygirl13 you may not see my post but if you do I hope you do not mind me asking if your dearly loved GC showed any outwardly traits to them being uncomfortable when younger to conforming to the gender they were born as?
I am just trying to have some understanding when a child may have feelings like that and what age it could show in certain ways. Perhaps even Dee1012 could even answer that.

I do hope your DGC are now happy to live as they want to I suppose the key word to how you have grown to get used to it is Acceptance.

I think if a family member comes out as trans, if you are a genuine person who loves unconditionally, acceptance is easy

Well not "easy" easy but in comparison to some it is, or at least acheivble

You cant change sex. Women have a right to consent and boundaries. There are major concerns about the medical care that transpeople receive, this has been highlighted again and again by gender critical feminists . GC feminists talk about the isues relating to transmen all the time. Oh and the 'its just the same as how gay people were treated gets a bit complicated when it is a large section of the gay community, especially lesbians who are raising these concerns. Have a quick look at stonewalls twitter feed on this issue and see what many gay people are saying.

It isn't so much how other groups were treated, it's more the process society has to go through to get to acceptance.

Stage one - it's unnatural!
Stage two - they can do what they want, just don't force it on others
Stage three - political support
Stage four - stops being topical issue of the time, everyone moves on

But galaxy,

The main difference between GC feminists and intersectional feminists in direct relation to trans issues seems to be

GC feminists care about issues trans people face that make them "not trans" and harmed by trans existence

Whereas intersectional feminists care about all the issues and do want to find solutions to all the issues

Can you see how that focus is a problem?

Open it up a little further, when the GC focus is mainly trans issues over the many many issues women accross the globe are facing that are a bit more serious than advertising slogans...

Can you see how that focus is a problem?

Trans and their allies get blamed for this when actually, it's not us stuck in a vortex looking for things to get offended about on one issue

"will speak for myself here, but others have said similar - I am nothing but supportive of transwomen who just get on with life (regardless of how they dress). It is when TRAs start insisting that women are called 'bleeders', 'breeders' or 'people with cervixes' etc, and that lesbians are transphobic when they don't want to have sex with men in dresses and beards who say they are women and so on (see threads passim) that we get exercised."

and that lesbians are transphobic when they don't want to have sex with men in dresses and beards who say they are women

... I'm slightly stunned at this. Admittedly, I know little about these things, but - is this actually true? Are lesbians really being accused of transphobia when they don't want sex with men in dresses and beards?

I thought one's choice of sexual partner was entirely their own, personal choice to make, regardless of gender identity. It almost reads like lesbians should conform to a pre-determined set of rules - which lay out the choices they are obliged to make... ??? This cannot be true, surely? I mean, putting it very simplistically - what if you find stubbly beards a big turn off?

I do feel I've been living under a rock for the last few years.

I know quite a few lesbians. I honestly can't say the conversation has ever covered their disgust at being expected to have sex with a transwoman with a penis. It has included having to get away from creepy heterosexual men who think lesbianism is a turn on and arranged specifically for their titillation, or who can't understand that it means no men, ever, and that 'turning' someone isn't a thing.