Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

Dickens a few bonkers people have said things like that. Well apparently as I have not personally come across that idea.

Most trans people and their allies don't give them a voice, a platform or any credibility because that's nonsense. Honestly.

Goes against all principles of feminism and equality to dictate that sort of thing to people

This is a statement made by Nancy Kelly CEO of Stonewall, in response to the pressure some lesbians have encountered over their reluctance to date transwomen who identify as lesbians. She knows that transwomen typically retain their penis.

volver

I do feel I've been living under a rock for the last few years.

... I think I have been living under a rock. Partly because I'm the carer of my disabled partner and, being partly disabled myself, I operate in another world... which also has it challenges.

I only know one trans woman - we both share an interest and run a Facebook group together. The only topics we discuss privately are cooking, politics, and our various (horrible) hospital experiences. I just take her at the 'face-value' I know she wants. There's a huge disparity in our age - she's early 20s, I'm 80 - but our passion for the same music appears to make that somewhat irrelevant - especially as we have the same political outlook. And that's the limit of my experience of the transgender world.

So I'm really a bit reluctant to say much, because I know and understand so little. However, sometimes I read something that really does make me blink...

Nancy Kelly seems quite reasonable there but maybe I am reading it differently.

3nanny6

Luckygirl13 and Dee1012, Thank-you for sharing your information on your GC and because they have chosen to live differently than "society dictates" on appearance clothing for each particular sex.

Luckygirl13 you may not see my post but if you do I hope you do not mind me asking if your dearly loved GC showed any outwardly traits to them being uncomfortable when younger to conforming to the gender they were born as?
I am just trying to have some understanding when a child may have feelings like that and what age it could show in certain ways. Perhaps even Dee1012 could even answer that.

I do hope your DGC are now happy to live as they want to I suppose the key word to how you have grown to get used to it is Acceptance.

3nanny6

I'll try to articulate what my relative has shared with me.. as a child outwardly everything was 'normal'. Male friends, played what was at that time - male only sports, played with stereotypical male orientated toys and games, short neatly cut hair, and the clothing boys wore. However approaching early puberty they described a massive internal confusion over who they were (although they described earlier feelings of a sense of constant discomfort / not feeling right) and the self-shame over not being normal. For a long time they truly believed that they were, in some way mentally damaged and all it did was ensure that it was kept it shut up inside with no real outlet or understanding of how to express those feelings.
If I reflect on how I and other family member's viewed the behaviour, I think we saw a very gentle and sensitive child who appeared to be on a level of what can only be called depression in teenage years.
Some members of our broader family are not accepting or show any level of understanding...I'm just thankful that I was told to try and have an open mind and to accept anyone for being who they are. That’s the key you see, for me it’s the person who you accept in life and nothing else about them matters.

Rosie51

This is a statement made by Nancy Kelly CEO of Stonewall, in response to the pressure some lesbians have encountered over their reluctance to date transwomen who identify as lesbians. She knows that transwomen typically retain their penis.

Thanks for that information.

Acknowledging that we're all subject I guess to societal pressures and prejudices, it still doesn't alter the fact that if you don't find someone attractive, then you're not going to want to have sex with them... however much you might examine your conscience.

I hate the shaming of the overweight, but I have never been attracted to an overweight man, physically. No matter how much I might realise that it's 'wrong' or hypocritical... if it's not there, it's not there. Or - maybe - I just never met the right overweight man. I don't know, I really don't.

This is such a minefield, I might be better keeping out of it.

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

VioletSky

Nancy Kelly seems quite reasonable there but maybe I am reading it differently.

To my mind comparing not wanting to date transwomen because they're male to being racist is quite unfounded. They are not equivalent.

I don't believe anyone's attractions are influenced by how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions. . If this was true surely there would have been hardly any homosexuals in the past when society was so hostile to the point of making male homosexuality illegal? Attraction, like sexual orientation is something innate.

If someone wouldn't date an overweight person, I wouldn't question that that is the truth. I would question if they were saying that to an overweight person..

That's the difference.

OK so you (blanket statement) would not ever date a trans person? Was it necessary to say it when you could just not do it?

It's quite a big difference if you think about it

trisher

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

But trisher if you are a lesbian you are sexually aroused by the female body not the male one. A transwoman does not have a female body. Would you say a lesbian should be open to dating a man? If she doesn't find men attractive and says she could never date one is she prejudiced?

Surely people date as a prelude to possible sex. Even kissing and fondling is sex and most dating couples indulge at least in kissing.

Rosie51

trisher

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

But trisher if you are a lesbian you are sexually aroused by the female body not the male one. A transwoman does not have a female body. Would you say a lesbian should be open to dating a man? If she doesn't find men attractive and says she could never date one is she prejudiced?

Surely people date as a prelude to possible sex. Even kissing and fondling is sex and most dating couples indulge at least in kissing.

I wish someone had told me this I thought a date was just going somewhere with someone and having (or not having) a nice time. No one told me I had to put out afterwards! (Is this why I'm single???)

trisher

Rosie51

trisher

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

But trisher if you are a lesbian you are sexually aroused by the female body not the male one. A transwoman does not have a female body. Would you say a lesbian should be open to dating a man? If she doesn't find men attractive and says she could never date one is she prejudiced?

Surely people date as a prelude to possible sex. Even kissing and fondling is sex and most dating couples indulge at least in kissing.

I wish someone had told me this I thought a date was just going somewhere with someone and having (or not having) a nice time. No one told me I had to put out afterwards! (Is this why I'm single???)

Of course dates can be just friends going out with someone and having a nice time, but let's not pretend that was what Nancy was referring to. She was definitely referring to dating potential sexual partners, the statement was made in reply to lesbians objecting to being pressured to dating and having sex with transwomen. I'm sure lesbians could happily be friends with transwomen and go out on 'dates' with them. I don't tend to use the word date when I'm going out with friends or family. My adult children refer to 'date night' as being without kids enjoying some romantic time together.

Hahaha trisher. Same here. No wonder none of the frogs turned into princes (or princesses)!

But even if I was looking for a sexual partner there are people who you could go on a date with, get on really well with but in no way see them as a sexual partner. It happens all the time on First Dates.

GagaJo

Hahaha trisher. Same here. No wonder none of the frogs turned into princes (or princesses)!

We obviously got the wrong end of the stick Gagajo (or something). It's a bit late now!

trisher

But even if I was looking for a sexual partner there are people who you could go on a date with, get on really well with but in no way see them as a sexual partner. It happens all the time on First Dates.

If you were looking for a sexual partner would you not want to go on dates with the sex category you found attractive? If you're a heterosexual woman wouldn't you look for a sexual partner amongst men, but if lesbian a sexual partner amongst women? Why would you look for a sexual partner by dating people of the sex you don't find sexually attractive?

trisher

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them.

But she did preface her comment with this, "sexuality is personal", and further go on to say "only we can know who we are attracted to"

She may not have explicitly mentioned having sex with anyone, but the implication is there, surely? Do people date those they are not attracted to?

And I certainly have not ruled out a "whole group of people". As I said, I might not have met the 'right' overweight man - because attraction to another is about more than their physical appearance.

I've never dated anyone with cerebral palsy... but I have dated someone who was disabled. His disability was secondary to the fact I found him attractive.

And, what is dating anyway? If sex is not going to be involved, then it's just a meet-up - which most of us presumably do with people from various demographics.

Being attracted to someone is subtle, many can't even put their finger on why one particular person attracts them and another doesn't. I have found men attractive whom other women have grimaced over when shown a photo'. They have shown me photo's of handsome fellas who leave me cold.

But then, I have never looked at people in groups to decide whether I would date them or not. It simply just 'happens'. Someone comes along, and there's a spark. That person could be from any of the groups mentioned, including the overweight, if that hazy and indefinable characteristic that attracts is there.

Why is dating only to do with sex? Couldn't it just as well be an opportunity to have a nice time, go somewhere with a new person, chat to someone. Will every single encounter end in sex? It doesn't usually. Someone I knew who was using a dating agency said she what she really wanted was someone to do nothing with, just hang out. If sex happens, it happens, it isn't the sole purpose.

Hello Dee1012 and thank-you for sharing the experience of your relative and how they described to you their feelings of what went on for them before they actually made the changes and lived how they wanted to.

I am interested to ask that question as I have a GC that openly shows their happiness and enjoyment of not being interested in wearing clothing that would be "conventional"
for their gender and prefers clothing for the gender they were not born as. The toys the child likes are also toys that are more associated with a different gender. At first I just thought it is only a phase and did not even give it much thought and did not make a big thing out of it. The child is going to school now and wears the dress code for the gender they are and loves school, but when they are at home reverts to different dressing which the mother is okay and comfortable with that. I brought the subject up in a completely normal way in regard of my GCs choices only because I was trying to understand better what could be going on. My GCs mother then appeared to get stressed so I firmly shup up and have said nothing since. My GC has not reached puberty yet and is still some way off from that.

I was also taken aback by another family member who is heterosexual but has always liked the company of several of her gay men friends and would never hear of anyone saying anything at all about her friends she told me oh why can't you buy the child some barbie dolls and stop being prudish.
All I wanted was to try and understand better that was all and I did have an open mind. That's it really so I will just wait and see how GC progresses.

Rosie51

Of course dates can be just friends going out with someone and having a nice time, but let's not pretend that was what Nancy was referring to. She was definitely referring to dating potential sexual partners, the statement was made in reply to lesbians objecting to being pressured to dating and having sex with transwomen. I'm sure lesbians could happily be friends with transwomen and go out on 'dates' with them. I don't tend to use the word date when I'm going out with friends or family. My adult children refer to 'date night' as being without kids enjoying some romantic time together.

You have made the point I was trying to make, succinctly. Mine was a bit laboured.

Thank you!

And, what is dating anyway? If sex is not going to be involved, then it's just a meet-up
But we often use the expression "It's a date" at least my friends and I do and it's nothing to do with sex just a meeting.

You can mock, and make stupid jokes about First Dates, but yes, lesbians do find themselves accused of transphobia when they reject transwomen sexually. Hi ho ho.

I don’t mean on a date to Betty’s tearooms followed by a walk in the park - I’m talking what amounts to meet-ups for sex. I know women who have been verbally abused and physically threatened when they have said that they fancy women, not transwomen, despite the fact that sexual attraction is a very personal thing.

The fact that clearly the posters who bang the drum for trans rights over women’s rights have no idea that this happens is telling, in the same way that because they haven’t been told to display a pronoun in a professional situation it can’t be true that others have had to do so and shows the depth of their awareness of the things they so vociferously support, and ‘back up’ with comparisons to the 1970s and earlier, when life was very different from today.

Doodledog I know lesbians who have been abused and pressurised by other lesbians who were not transwomen. The reason women's refuges began risk assessing was because they realised some women were dangerous. Does this mean all women are? of course not. Anyone whatever their sex, whatever their gender forcing anyone to have sex, or abusing or threatening them, in an attempt to intimidate them, is wrong. But it isn't limited to transwomen and not all transwomen are abusive and threatening. There are threatening and abusive people about but we don't avoid everyone because of them.

trisher

^And, what is dating anyway? If sex is not going to be involved, then it's just a meet-up^
But we often use the expression "It's a date" at least my friends and I do and it's nothing to do with sex just a meeting.

Yes... "it's a date then" is an expression I and my friends have used when agreeing to a meet.

But we're splitting hairs here.

What kind of 'date' do you think Nancy Kelly had in mind when she said this:

"Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no right way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we are attracted to."

This is going to be unpopular but hey ho.

I have got absolutely no problems with a fully transitioned man (after gender reassignment surgery) calling themselves a trans women. They will never be a woman, always a trans woman due to their biological make-up (DNA, chromosomes etc)

If the person calling themselves a trans woman has full male genitalia they are not a trans woman they are a man in a dress until such time they have fully transitioned and had gender reassignment surgery.