Violence at Stop violence against women march

Women can be strong, but women would be stronger if they had the support of ordinary tw against the ill-intentioned ones. If all tw are really supportive of the women they aspire to call themselves, they would not be seeking to override the rights of those women who are AHF. Most of them aren’t doing that.
The ill-intentioned transwomen are like cuckoos. They want what the genuine baby is entitled to have and throw the genuine baby out without any compunction about the damage they are doing.

Smileless2012

Women are strong trisher, we need to be and it's obvious that Chewbacca's post in response to nanna isn't about what's been posted on this thread or any other on this topic.

I don't recall seeing the posts you claimed to have seen; can you remember where they are?

Yes there is strength in unity which is why women should be united in preserving our identity, our safe places, our sense of self and well being.

Of course the suffragettes knew this and they also knew what it was to be a woman, and if they were here today they would know that a trans woman is not a woman,

Actually the suffragettes were roundly condemned and called unwomanly because of their activities Smileless2012. They were told having the vote would change them. The white in the suffragette colours stands for purity because they were called irreligious and even evil. Many of the things now attributed to transwomen.
I'm willing to unite with anyone who realises that trans status is not the issue at all it's inequality and persecution.

evil. Many of the things now justifiably attributed to ill-intentioned transwomen.

GrannyGravy13

Dickens grannydarkhair eloquent, informative posts ????

... thank you. grannydarkhair really does though know her stuff, and I am learning from what she's posted.

I'm bowing out now from this, ahem, interesting discussion - with all its deletions - as I've got work to do. But would just like to say this in conclusion.

I, as a natal woman, cannot possibly know how it feels to be a trans woman. I haven't suffered the discrimination they have had to endure. I don't know what it's like to want / need to identify as a woman. I haven't undergone any treatment that might play havoc with my hormones - nor experienced the pleasure / relief that it also might give if it's successful. Neither do I know what it feels like to dress as a woman and have people stare at you because they feel you don't look "quite right". I can empathise with all that trans women have to put up with and argue against the bigotry that 'others' them... but I cannot live their experiences because I am not them. I can listen, and I can learn.

In turn, they cannot know my experience as a woman, they have not lived it. My history is different from theirs. They cannot define me and I will not be defined by them. We have communality though - we are both groups who have been discriminated against, and both have had violence perpetrated against them. And in essence, we both want to belong to and identify with each other, as a demographic.

... that's as much as I understand. And that's what I feel.

Dickens you could add to that that although you share body similarities with her you have not experienced what a black women has experienced. Your oppression has been different to hers.
That's the whole point of intersectional feminism. We have diifferent experiences but we can stand united against oppresion and discrimination.

Smileless2012

Women are strong trisher, we need to be and it's obvious that Chewbacca's post in response to nanna isn't about what's been posted on this thread or any other on this topic.

I don't recall seeing the posts you claimed to have seen; can you remember where they are?

Yes there is strength in unity which is why women should be united in preserving our identity, our safe places, our sense of self and well being.

Of course the suffragettes knew this and they also knew what it was to be a woman, and if they were here today they would know that a trans woman is not a woman,

Look at volvers thread about gender. She was roundly condemned for suggesting women could be strong.

trisher

Dickens you could add to that that although you share body similarities with her you have not experienced what a black women has experienced. Your oppression has been different to hers.
That's the whole point of intersectional feminism. We have diifferent experiences but we can stand united against oppresion and discrimination.

Well it's axiomatic that as a white person, I have not experienced the racial discrimination suffered by black women - or men - full stop! And I'm very much aware of that.

The omission was simply because I was looking at both demographics as a group - I just didn't split them up into sub-sections. But yes, I realise that to be black and trans is something I can know about, but not experience.

This explains well

www.womankind.org.uk/intersectionality-101-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-important/

VioletSky

This explains well

www.womankind.org.uk/intersectionality-101-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-important/

... it does.

Before the word 'intersectionality' gained traction, it was obvious to me - and therefore I assume most others - that the oppression of, and discrimination against, women and girls, huge though it feels if you are in that demographic, is only part of the same oppression and discrimination that affects other groups. I also realised quite early that a misogynist is not unlikely to also be a racist bigot. Xenophobia, prejudice and bigotry are all part of the socially and politically 'illiterate' mindset. It's a culture all of its own.

Exactly so Dickens. Misogyny, Xenophobia, prejudice and bigotry usually go hand in hand.

That’s one of the reasons that putting gender critical feminists in the same group is so offensive.

ViolentSky but your link is only explains well or is important to tw.
Feminists who respect Females and the females themselves need to have their concerns addressed and respected without having to ‘compromise’ and ‘look for ways to work together’. All attempts so far are a bit like Mr Putin and Ukraine. His view is like what some TW claim.
You can have what you want as long as what I want comes first. Or like the cuckoo I mentioned earlier.

Or when Ford went into mass production 'you can have any colour you want as long as it's black' Mollygo.

I'm well aware of the history of the suffragette movement trisher and how they were referred too which is why I'm horrified when I see the same, similar and even worse said about women who do not accept that trans women are women and the attempts to silence them.

I'm well aware of the history of the suffragette movement trisher and how they were referred too which is why I'm horrified when I see the same, similar and even worse said about women who do not accept that trans women are women and the attempts to silence them.
The real truth, Smileless2012

Mollygo

I'm well aware of the history of the suffragette movement trisher and how they were referred too which is why I'm horrified when I see the same, similar and even worse said about women who do not accept that trans women are women and the attempts to silence them.
The real truth, Smileless2012

But no other women have said those things Mollygo. I have consistently said that gender critical feminists are not as some claim radical. because radicalism has a long connection and history with change and progress and they should embrace intersectional feminism.
Whereas I and other intersectional feminists have been told we are in favour of women being abused, we are mysognistic, we always support men and numerous other claims. Many of which are absolutely similar to the accusations thrown at suffragettes by other women. They may be fondly remembered now but at the time they were considered beyond the pale by many. They were not women who thought they had to be victims and needed protection they were women who challenged men and stood up to them. That's the sort of reaction I would like to see now. I'm sure there is common ground but when I march and protest I have no idea if the person next to me is what some would term a "real" or a transwoman and frankly I don't care.

We are standing up to men. Thats why we are getting abuse and our jobs threatened.

We are saying no and some men hate that.

We are saying no and standing up to males. Some males (and sadly some females) hate that.
That’s why we get abused, cancelled, deleted or assaulted or have our jobs threatened.

Trisher (sorry for making you a proper noun instead common, but it’s the start of a sentence) Feminists care for females’ needs and rights. They don’t need any additional title to say that they care for other members of society. Are you saying that being a Feminist means they don’t care for others in society?
Those feminists who don’t put females first are patriarchal feminists, because they support the rights and needs of those who are not female with words like ‘equality’ ‘discrimination’, ‘persecution’ etc (which they practice against women),
You may be able to sit on the fence and call yourself ‘intersectional’ but that’s not true feminism, it’s feminism that needs qualifying. However, the additional word intersectional, unlike patriarchal, doesn’t explain anything.

Dickens Thank you for saying I know my stuff, but trust me, I don’t think anyone can possibly be fully aware of every facet of this issue.
Some might be concerned with safe single sex spaces, eg. prisons, domestic refuge centres, changing rooms, hospital wards.
That includes sport, Lia Thomas is depriving a woman of a place in a team/on a podium, but he’s not actually physically hurting any of his team-mates/fellow competitors. But if it was a close contact sport, it could be different. There has been an instance of a woman wrestling (I think, I really can’t remember exactly what the sport was called) with a transwoman. Amongst other injuries, he fractured her skull during the bout, again due to the biological advantages he gained through undergoing male puberty. He was in the armed forces before he claimed to be trans, there’s photos of him online, he’s built like the proverbial brick s…-house. Why she even wanted to enter a ring and try to fight him is beyond my understanding.
For some, the damage being done to young women and men transitioning is important. There’s already been lots posted here and in other threads about this. There’s been a huge increase in the number of girls especially. Historically, there’s always been more males than females who claimed to be trans. The males were usually middle aged, or at least well into adulthood, eg Debbie Hayton. There’s lots of articles been written on the reasons for the change in the demographics.
Jazz Jennings is a young American transwoman. There’s a tv series about Jazz/the Jennings family. Jazz has undergone numerous surgical procedures, often having to have follow up “repair” surgery and had gained 100+lbs recently. I’ve only seen small clips of the show, and found them very disturbing. To me and many others, Jazz appears to be a profoundly damaged soul, being prostituted (and I don’t use that term lightly) by/in the media. But why? Financial gain, the chance to be in the limelight, the family didn’t want a gay son? Take your pick.
As usual, this is another long post, sorry for that. But it’ll be the last for a while, I’ve got a lot of emails to go through, can’t believe how quickly they mount up.

One last post, today Twitter is full of photos of the winner’s podium at the swim meet in the USA. Lia Thomas is in 1st place, there’s no-one on the second place, so there’s an obvious gap and the three young women who came in 2nd, 3rd and 4th are standing together on the third place podium. Pictures truly do speak louder than words.

grannydarkhair

One last post, today Twitter is full of photos of the winner’s podium at the swim meet in the USA. Lia Thomas is in 1st place, there’s no-one on the second place, so there’s an obvious gap and the three young women who came in 2nd, 3rd and 4th are standing together on the third place podium. Pictures truly do speak louder than words.

I have seen that photo, very poignant.

GrannyGravy13

grannydarkhair
One last post, today Twitter is full of photos of the winner’s podium at the swim meet in the USA. Lia Thomas is in 1st place, there’s no-one on the second place, so there’s an obvious gap and the three young women who came in 2nd, 3rd and 4th are standing together on the third place podium. Pictures truly do speak louder than words.
I have seen that photo, very poignant.
Thank you for the post. I’ve seen the picture it’s very moving and the young women did well.
I expect he’s proud of himself.

This is the photo.

Brave women.

It shouldn't be forgotten that Emma Weyant won the silver medal at the Tokyo olympics for the 400m individual relay. Her time for this race was the 3rd fastest in UVA history. But hey, Lia looks so proud, one might even say smug.

Thank you ^grannydarkhair* for another informative post. A disturbing one, too.

Yes - those emails do mount up... there's both advantages and disadvantages with modern technology - you'd probably never get that many letters through the post as emails in your inbox. And some people want a reply - yesterday .