I think this will happen more and more

Your position on treatment for children

What's my position on the treatment of children Galaxy? I haven't worked out any such thing so maybe you can help me understand what it is that I think? Tell me what my opinion is, that kind of thing?

volver by criticising others, you give us a good idea of what you think.

Bloody hell I hope you arent my brother. Hes a scientist and you have the same turn of phrase. That last sentence made me smile.

I can only go by what you say on here. It was sonething along the lines of dont give drugs to children. I am paraphrasing.

It was in the midst of a fair bit of sarcasm so you may not have been being serious.

volver

Rosie51

volver

No hive mind, but I thought the idea that people can't change sex is sacrosanct. So people born female have to fight as females. But apparently they can fight as males if they like.

But only if they were born female. If they were born males, they have to confirm to the rules set for them.

I'd have thought the scientist in you would actually understand the bit about the testosterone, but there you go I overestimated.
Are you aware of the influence of a male puberty that cannot be undone by a bit of testosterone reduction? The heart doesn't shrink, nor the lungs lose capacity. Skeletal shape doesn't change, nor bones lose their density or length. There's tons on the internet if you'd like to educate yourself.

I dropped biology before O-Grade.

I can explain astrophysics and quantum mechanics to you though, if you like.

No thanks, I have a son can do that in the unlikely event I want such information. Of course if I wanted to post on a thread dealing with that subject matter I'd not be lecturing people while admitting I knew absolutely nothing about it.
I don't think O-Grade biology is actually necessary to educate yourself on the difference between the effects of male and female puberties on the body. Any reasonably intelligent person will be able to understand.

Still you avoid answering any questions while asking others to give an answer.

GrannyGravy13

Personally I think that there should be transgender categories in all single sex sports.

Me too, but if asked about the transman (female) competing in a male boxing contest I would say no in exactly the same way as I would say no to males competing in female competitions.

Galaxy

I can only go by what you say on here. It was sonething along the lines of dont give drugs to children. I am paraphrasing.

If by paraphrasing you mean saying something I never wrote or meant, then yes, you're paraphrasing.

And I'm definitely not your brother. I'm happy to tell you that we are probably not related at all.

I'd not be lecturing people while admitting I knew absolutely nothing about it.

Asking questions and getting clarification is not my definition of "lecturing". But heigh ho.

Artificial hormones and drugs are banned by all professional sports bodies.

So I assume that any trans taking hormones drugs should be banned from competitions?

I can only assume that Lia is not taking any hormones/drugs to aid their transition and is only ID’ing as female in order to be No.1 as a male swimmer Lia (William) was approx 472

volver

^I'd not be lecturing people while admitting I knew absolutely nothing about it.^

Asking questions and getting clarification is not my definition of "lecturing". But heigh ho.

Are you planning at any point to answer the questions put to you? I answered yours about where the boxer should compete. You've chosen not to answer when I asked your question of you. Seems a bit rude, unless you actually didn't expect others to answer.

Galaxy

Thanks for showing us an article about a transmen volver. Do you think we havent seen a transman before. I think sport should be segregated by sex. How else do you poropose to segregate it.

Depends what the ‘sex’ is doesn’t it ? I personally think the only fair thing should be a separate category for transgender folk. How can it possibly be fair for a biological man to compete against a biological woman?

Rosie51

volver

I'd not be lecturing people while admitting I knew absolutely nothing about it.

Asking questions and getting clarification is not my definition of "lecturing". But heigh ho.

Are you planning at any point to answer the questions put to you? I answered yours about where the boxer should compete. You've chosen not to answer when I asked your question of you. Seems a bit rude, unless you actually didn't expect others to answer.

Why do you think Manuel shouldn't be fighting women, but Fallon Fox (a man) should be? Wee bit of an assumption there.

Where do I think Manuel should compete?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking questions about it. But what I get back is accusations that I should know, because I'm a scientist. But then applying the logic of this debate, which says that people can’t change sex, Manuel is female. So when a poster says sport should be segregated by sex, that implies Manuel should fight as a female. But then someone says Manual can fight as a man if s/he wants. But men can’t choose to fight as females. So its nothing to do with sex, is it? Its to do with physical attributes. Then testosterone gets in on the act. Changes everything we've talked about above, overrides sex.

So it would be really nice if people who have really strong views on this took some time to think about what they were saying and why other people think its a bl**dy minefield.

This actually raises another query for me.
Can anybody send me a link to where it has been decided that it’s OK for some competitors to take drugs but not others?
I thought that only happened in Russia.

Do you think we dont know its a minefield volver. We have watched people we know being threatened for believing in biological sex.
Yes all people on here dont agree. I personally think it is about sex, but I also think other rules apply so I dont think an 18 year old should be allowed in the under 8 football team for example. Some people on here think that transwomen who have had surgery for example should be allowed in womens prisons I dont agree. I am not sure why variations in opinions are a surprise. Many people on the other 'side' of the debate believe very firmly that transwomen are women until it comes to sport or relationships for example.

GrannyGravy13

Artificial hormones and drugs are banned by all professional sports bodies.

So I assume that any trans taking hormones drugs should be banned from competitions?

I can only assume that Lia is not taking any hormones/drugs to aid their transition and is only ID’ing as female in order to be No.1 as a male swimmer Lia (William) was approx 472

This is what I was going to say.

Galaxy

Do you think we dont know its a minefield volver. We have watched people we know being threatened for believing in biological sex.
Yes all people on here dont agree. I personally think it is about sex, but I also think other rules apply so I dont think an 18 year old should be allowed in the under 8 football team for example. Some people on here think that transwomen who have had surgery for example should be allowed in womens prisons I dont agree. I am not sure why variations in opinions are a surprise. Many people on the other 'side' of the debate believe very firmly that transwomen are women until it comes to sport or relationships for example.

Yes, I'm sure its a minefield Galaxy. I'm happy to admit that the people who are personally affected by this are having a much harder time than I am - incomparably harder.

But debates are not allowed, are they? Nobody can put their head above the parapet without one side calling "transphobe" or the other side calling ... well actually I can't think what the other side would be calling, I'm so blooming confused by the whole thing.

Each side seems to hate the other and think they're wicked and unreconstructed. Or something. Insults are the order of the day. Assumptions about what people know and don't know.

I'm off back to the international economic sanctions thread, its easier.

So its nothing to do with sex, is it? Its to do with physical attributes. Then testosterone gets in on the act. Changes everything we've talked about above, overrides sex.

Manuel is female, but in order to transition into a man who'd 'pass' Manuel will have taken and continue to take testosterone. Any female that Manuel boxed against would not be permitted to take testosterone, it being a banned drug because it builds bulk and strength artificially. It would make for an unfair advantage as well as condoning illegal drug taking in one competitor (illegal for sporting purposes, obviously not illegal for transition purposes)
A transwoman who suppresses testosterone could compete against another male with some small disadvantage to themselves. Of course their pubertal development wouldn't have changed with regard to lung capacity, bone density and length etc as outlined in my earlier post.

The answer could be that transpeople have to have two more categories developed for them. Transmen and transwomen. Then everything is as fair as we can get. Alternatively you could have a female class (no banned drugs permitted), a male class (no banned drugs permitted) and an open class, anything goes.

volver

^Your position on treatment for children^

What's my position on the treatment of children Galaxy? I haven't worked out any such thing so maybe you can help me understand what it is that I think? Tell me what my opinion is, that kind of thing?

Unexpected laugh

No hate here. Vague irritation at times. To be fair volver I have quite cross with quite a few people in other subjects.

Aargh. Am cooking. That should say I have seen you be quite cross with a few people on other subjects.

Well it comes across as hate. Not getting at you particularly. Just telling you all how it appears.

I think women saying no often appears unkind volver.

I believe that you cant change sex. I think women have a right to sex segregated spaces under the equality act. I think the rapid rise in female to male transition is something that needs to be looked at and the detransitioners who are now appearing. No hate.

Don't patronise me Galaxy. You sound like something out of an eighties assertiveness manual.