I think this will happen more and more

Exactly Mollygo
I forget that the terms can be confusing and they sometimes need clarification.

FarNorth

Exactly Mollygo
I forget that the terms can be confusing and they sometimes need clarification.

I read somewhere that's exactly why they were chosen!

All sports need to include a category for athletes who cannot compete in male or female events. This is the only way it will be fair to everyone.

Sarnia

All sports need to include a category for athletes who cannot compete in male or female events. This is the only way it will be fair to everyone.

Would you allow the transmen to take testosterone, as otherwise they'd still be barred from sport?

Sarnia

All sports need to include a category for athletes who cannot compete in male or female events. This is the only way it will be fair to everyone.

Yes, male, female and open would fit the bill in different ways.
1. In the open category, no one need mention either sex or gender.
2. No need for testosterone reducing drugs or other doping.
3. The open category might initially have only have two or three competitors, raising the chances of winning a gold medal. Though I feel that would change and the number would increase when observers noticed that opportunity to shine.

What stands in the way of that do you think?

volver

Interested to know where we think this boxer should complete.

www.espn.co.uk/boxing/story/_/id/31662608/boxer-patricio-manuel-transgender-pioneer-looking-next-fight

Don't want to get into an argument but would boxing not be a sport that could incorporate trans people.

I am no expert but there are categories in boxing e.g. lightweight, featherweight, heavyweight etc. It is a one on one sport that would give more equality based on those categories. The article says that boxers can refuse to fight their opponent if they so wish - or did I misunderstand that.

What stands in the way of that do you think?

Hmmm, that's a hard one. You could start with FarNorth's post of 11.44

I don't think for one minute that failing to make the top 500 in the men's division was at all in Lia Thomas's mind when they made the decision to transition and subsequently became number 1 in a women's category of swimming. Lia wants to go to the Olympics, something that couldn't even be a pipe dream as a male, but as a transwoman.... well Lia's already beaten 3 female Olympic medallists in the latest NCAA swimming championship.

So who might want to be in the open category?
Maybe only trans people.
So, transwomen i.e. male people who may or may not be taking testosterone-lowering drugs and transmen who may or may not be taking testosterone supplements and, either way, are unlikely to have much chance against the transwomen.
It's not sounding too good, so far.

As someone already said, female people who want to relieve their gender dysphoria by taking testosterone thereby disqualify themselves from female sports.
They can choose to leave sport or to make the best of it in male sport.
Why is the same not true for male people?

(Testosterone-lowering drugs don't reduce their levels to anywhere near those of women.)

You’re right FarNorth, it’s not. Do we have any figures for transmen taking part in competitive sport or for transwomen taking part in competitive sport before they were allowed to call themselves women?

I hope Mara Yamauchi is right about this.

Yes I think the numbers of current athletes prepared to speak out in the last few days has been encouraging.

Mollygo

You’re right FarNorth, it’s not. Do we have any figures for transmen taking part in competitive sport or for transwomen taking part in competitive sport before they were allowed to call themselves women?

There's the non-binary Canadian footballer who elects to play on the women's (female) team which is entirely allowable since Quinn is biologically female.
I actually don't understand why non-binary comes under the trans umbrella. Trans is transitioning, changing to the other, but non-binary is staying as you are but rejecting a binary classification, or am I misunderstanding non-binary?

On the subject of transwomen in sport I can't find it now but I did read about a cyclist who put off their transition to a transwoman until after their cycling competitive days were over. They said it was a hard decision, but they felt it was a fair one. Given I admired her for doing that I could kick myself that I can't recall the name, and googling just brings up Emily Bridges or Veronica Ivy.

They said it was a hard decision, but they felt it was a fair one.

That implies that if he had transitioned he would have expected to switch to competing with women, rather than accept the price of his heartfelt desire to transition had to be a slightly lower performance while continuing to compete with men.

That person doesn't deserve admiration just because he chose success as a man over unfair competition with women.

What stands in the way of that do you think?
What stands in the way is I don’t think that’s what trans want they only want to compete against weaker bodies so that they can win ???

FarNorth

^They said it was a hard decision, but they felt it was a fair one.^

That implies that if he had transitioned he would have expected to switch to competing with women, rather than accept the price of his heartfelt desire to transition had to be a slightly lower performance while continuing to compete with men.

That person doesn't deserve admiration just because he chose success as a man over unfair competition with women.

I suppose I hadn't considered it like that FarNorth It is revealing that I admired his choice not to cheat women of their rightful place, as I'm sure he would have expected to race women after transition. Too easy to get sucked in isn't it? I now feel a bit foolish

Don't feel foolish Rosie.
As you say, you were sucked in. Also it's natural to want to be positive.

It's a sign of the male feeling of entitlement that he obviously didn't consider continuing to compete as a man, if he transitioned.

It's a sign of the male feeling of entitlement that he obviously didn't consider continuing to compete as a man, if he transitioned.
No, he didn't consider that for a minute, wanted to race and win. He made it clear it was only when his competitive days were over he went ahead with the transition.

A small step towards actual fairness, maybe?

The young women who lost places because of Lia Thomas get recognition.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/cscaa-announces-all-americans-for-womens-division-i-swimming-and-diving/?fbclid=IwAR19uScnhJ7jVBykagAqo3u0vyym3_hEYdSG0uqcgbyAepH-pn2zw_xsaKo

That is good to read. As you say a small step in the right direction. Do we think it would have happened if everybody had just stayed mute, or only uttered how stunning, brave and worthy Lia Thomas was?

Thanks FarNorth that’s definitely a step in the right direction for female sports.
Rosie51, no. He would still have been depriving females of their rightful awards.
A huge thank you to all those who have really made the point about it being cheating.

Absolutely not, Rosie.

I've heard some people say it's not Thomas's fault as he just followed the rules that exist.
He did, but he can't have been unaware of the results of doing that.
He simply didn't care as long as he could push himself forward.
Still, maybe we should hail him for getting this widely noticed and commented on.

"If ever you get lost in this debate then harness your inner ten-year-old. You wouldn’t want to compete with the bigger boys and girls. Nor do you want to beat the little ones. That would be worthless. You would want to match yourself against the other ten-year-olds. You love sport for the competition."
Olympic cyclist Nicole Cooke

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10680099/Olympic-gold-medallist-NICOLE-COOKE-hero-trans-woman-bravely-speaks-out.html

.

The young woman who tied in 5th place with Lia Thomas speaks out.

youtu.be/O-MKufBgav0