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Ukraine - contd

(162 Posts)
boheminan Tue 22-Mar-22 13:50:11

Although I have not contributed to this thread, I'm keeping a close eye on it for information. I think it's important to keep it alive.

Over to you....

Whitewavemark2 Mon 28-Mar-22 11:44:02

You do realise that I think that it was a mis-speak that should never have taken place, and you have no argument from me that it shouldn’t have happened?

Where we differ is that I refuse to become divided on the issue and am prepared to tackle any outcome head on.

I am not and have never been the sort to Sit on the sidelines wringing my hands without taking any necessary action.

Action which none of you seem to have a clear idea what should happen next other than bemoan the fact that Biden made a diplomatic off the cuff error.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 28-Mar-22 11:45:10

That I think is enough time on this subject, as far as I am concerned.

volver Mon 28-Mar-22 11:48:59

Where we differ is that I refuse to become divided on the issue and am prepared to tackle any outcome head on.

What you don't seem to understand WWM2, is that nobody is suggesting that Biden should be removed from office or whatever, although a few extreme people are saying he's senile or whatever.

Most people are not saying that. Most people are saying that what he said was ill-advised and will support Putin's claim that the West are out to get him, and Russia in general.

We don't have to do anything. There's nothing we can do. We just get on with it.

And I'll bemoan anything I like, that's what we do in free countries.

DaisyAnne Mon 28-Mar-22 11:50:54

Whitewavemark2

Yes you are right, and as I said it was unfortunate, but I honestly don’t think that it will make a fart-icle of difference to Ukraine.

What we have to focus on is the evil being done by Putin, and not a mis+spoken word by the leader of the free world.

It is so important not to over-react at such a difficult time.

It is absolutely important that when faced with such evil we remain a closed and tight force letting nothing divide us.

If you listen to Trump and his speeches lately that is exactly what he is trying to do, so typical of the populist agenda.

We all know that much goes on behind the scenes. This outrage - some so obviously faux - is people wanting to show they know more than experts. In this case, Biden is an expert and, as I said, one talking to more than one audience.

Trump is simply evil and best ignored. I know we can't or we will have another Putin on our hands but it is best wherever possible.

Casdon Mon 28-Mar-22 11:53:33

I agree volver, that it was a stupid and serious error. I still think it’s ultimately a storm in a teacup though, this is going to be a drawn out affair, and I don’t believe that it will be a defining moment - we all know how much Putin has manipulated the Russian media for years, and that people have already made their minds up what they believe. What would be helpful for us all would be an enhanced understanding of what else the Russian people have been told, there’s been remarkably little media coverage about the detail that’s led them to believe everything he tells them.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 28-Mar-22 11:55:57

Whitewavemark2

That I think is enough time on this subject, as far as I am concerned.

Of course I haven’t suggested that people think he should be removed from office.

I am saying very strongly that we can’t afford to become divided.

volver Mon 28-Mar-22 11:56:15

The "experts" will know that it will probably not make an iota of difference to the day to day running of this war.

But the "experts" will also know that what he said, whether it was scripted or not, is inflammatory and will be used by Putin to show that the West want him gone.

What did "expert" Biden mean when he told those American soldiers they'd see what Ukraine was like when they got there?

Nothing "faux" here. A bit of realpolitik and an understanding of propaganda.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 28-Mar-22 11:56:15

I must now stop!!

MerylStreep Mon 28-Mar-22 12:03:03

you are playing his game and forgetting where your loyalties should be lying
And you need to get your head out of your backside.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 28-Mar-22 12:06:56

MerylStreep

^you are playing his game and forgetting where your loyalties should be lying^
And you need to get your head out of your backside.

Gosh with that sort of argument I think I will call it a day.

Callistemon21 Mon 28-Mar-22 12:37:45

I am not and have never been the sort to Sit on the sidelines wringing my hands without taking any necessary action.

What kind of action will you be taking Whitewave?

So if you are calling it a day on here then I presume you are off to negotiate with that nice Mr Putin?
Good luck with that

You are playing his game, and forgetting where your loyalties should be lying.
That really is offensive.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 28-Mar-22 12:49:00

I almost entirely agree with this article, that can be found in the CNN site, and written by Dean Obeidallah - an attorney and Journalist.

“Biden didn't hold back in what will likely be seen as a historic speech Saturday just hours from the Ukrainian border. The president appealed directly to the Russian people, telling them, "I refuse to believe that you welcome the killing of innocent children and grandparents or that you accept hospitals, schools, maternity wards that, for God's sake, are being pummeled with Russian missiles and bombs."

The world has seen the horrors Putin has rained down upon the people of Ukraine simply because they won't bend a knee to this brutal dictator and agree to give up their democracy and self-determination.

The civilian death toll in Ukraine has exceeded 1,100 people -- including nearly 100 children -- according to the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, but it notes the actual figures are likely considerably higher.

Some of the most horrific events include the actions of Putin's forces in the March 16 bombing of Mariupol's Drama Theater -- a shelter for civilians -- killing about 300 people, according to Ukrainian officials.

And as The New York Times documented last week, Russian forces have bombed at least 23 hospitals and other health care infrastructure, 330 schools and 27 cultural buildings as well 900 houses and apartment buildings. The paper also detailed Russian forces have used cluster munitions, which are imprecise and amount to indiscriminate bombings of civilians.

Biden has been right to call Putin a "war criminal" and even a "butcher," as he stated Saturday after visiting Ukrainian refugees in Poland. No one who engages in an unprovoked attack on another nation and then in war crimes should remain in power.

But Putin, the "murderous dictator," as Biden has also described him, engaged in these types of gruesome attacks on civilians in Syria as well, beginning in 2015 when his forces provided military support to keep Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad in power. Putin's forces in Syria -- as in Ukraine now -- bombed hospitals, schools, markets and other civilian targets. Putin's military devastated Syrian cities and in the process slaughtered more than 24,000 civilians, as The Guardian detailed, citing civilian casualty monitor Airwars.

Beyond those apparent war crimes, Putin has been actively working to undermine Western democracies. For example, in France's 2017 presidential election campaign, Russian operatives reportedly spread disinformation in an effort to hurt the candidate they opposed, the moderate Emmanuel Macron, while boosting the far-right candidate, Marine Le Pen.

And of course, in the United States, as the Mueller report documented, "The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion." The report further noted "a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton," explaining "the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome."

Biden on Saturday reiterated a point he has made time and time again since becoming President, namely the world is locked in a contest between democracy and autocracy. During his inaugural address on January 20, 2021 -- just two weeks after the January 6 attack on the Capitol -- he declared, "We have learned again that democracy is precious. Democracy is fragile."

It's why just a month later during his virtual speech at the Munich Security Conference, Biden said, "Democracy doesn't happen by accident. We have to defend it, fight for it, strengthen it, renew it." It also explains why in December his administration organized the Summit for Democracy, which brought together democratic leaders from around the world to tackle the threat of autocratic forces such as Putin.

Near the end of his speech Saturday, Biden returned to this theme as he explained the world is caught in "a battle between democracy and autocracy, between liberty and repression."

In keeping with that point, he slammed Putin's ambitions, declaring "a dictator bent on rebuilding an empire will never erase a people's love for liberty." Instead, Biden promised "a brighter future rooted in democracy and principle, hope and light, of decency and dignity, of freedom and possibilities."

That is when Biden said about Putin, "For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power.”

To that I say amen.

Callistemon21 Mon 28-Mar-22 12:51:04

I am saying very strongly that we can’t afford to become divided.
Well, I do agree with that but our leaders do have to be very careful with their speeches too - they are perfectly aware that they are not dealing with a democratically elected leader of a free country with freedom of the media.

We know that anyone dissenting disappears - I don't know if Navalny has been on hunger strike, if it's a result of the poisoning attack but he looked terrible at his recent trial as if he is being starved and has now been sent to an even stricter penal colony.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60832310

Callistemon21 Mon 28-Mar-22 12:53:49

X post

Grandmashe43 Mon 28-Mar-22 12:54:23

Whitewave, excellent post, and another Amen.

volver Mon 28-Mar-22 12:59:36

Grandmashe43

Whitewave, excellent post, and another Amen.

Well that excellent post was a cut and paste from CNN, so any praise going should be directed at them.

Here's a comment from Jon Sopel, for comparison.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 28-Mar-22 13:15:46

Grandmashe43

Whitewave, excellent post, and another Amen.

Yes you are right, it says everything I agree with.

Zoejory Mon 28-Mar-22 13:25:55

You can all Amen as much as you like but the world is worrying about Putin's words.

This article from CNN will show you how disturbed the White House, a US Envoy to NATO, Emmanuel Macron, the Ukranian Ambassador to USA and many others.

"This is how a weak and sick person behaves - psychiatrists will be able to explain his behaviour better," Vyacheslav Volodin, chairman of the Duma, Russia's lower house of parliament, said on Saturday. "American citizens should be ashamed of their president."

That's from a Russian lawmaker.

We can all agree that we would like to see Putin leave his post but we have to use words extremely carefully. Especially with Putin. If you really want this to escalate, keep wheeling Biden out.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/reactions-biden-saying-putin-cannot-remain-power-2022-03-27/

Zoejory Mon 28-Mar-22 13:39:34

This from you, WW2

Wow Biden’s speech is sooooo good.

Had you not heard Biden's last comment?

Jaberwok Mon 28-Mar-22 14:46:00

The people of Russia will only hear parts of Bidens speech that the Kremlin wish them to hear. The bits about the devastation this war is causing Ukraine will be censored, the bits criticising Putin will not. They will form their opinions on that which they hear, and it won't endear them to the West.

MerylStreep Mon 28-Mar-22 15:04:12

Whitewavemark2
No comment from Oz Katerji ? He was your go to font of knowledge in all things relating to this war.

Callistemon21 Mon 28-Mar-22 15:17:11

"This is how a weak and sick person behaves - psychiatrists will be able to explain his behaviour better," Vyacheslav Volodin, chairman of the Duma, Russia's lower house of parliament, said on Saturday. "American citizens should be ashamed of their president."

Oh goodness, the sheer irony in that statement is breathtaking!!

Whitewavemark2 Wed 30-Mar-22 09:34:34

I began to think after all the opposition to my stand on Biden’s speech that I had it very wrong, and have as a result read a lot of opinions other than the media of course, and I am so relieved that I am very much not alone in my opinion.

The Rory Stuart/Alastair Campbell podcast sums it up succinctly.

Whew! Nice to know that I’m not losing the plot.

Callistemon21 Wed 30-Mar-22 09:48:47

We can agree to differ on anything ?

Whitewavemark2 Wed 30-Mar-22 09:57:47

Callistemon21

We can agree to differ on anything ?

Absolutely, but I seemed to be one of only a couple of people who thought as I did, so naturally thought I must be very misguided.

To be frank I was willing to come back on to say that I had got it wrong if I had read enough that convinced me so.