War crimes in Ukraine

volver

I hope these last two posts are aimed at the folk trying to belittle the European nations that are also standing up to Putin, are they?

Nope - they are aimed at keeping this thread on track.

Callistemon21

Whitewavemark2

Maudi

Liz Truss demands EU leaders stop filling Putin's 'war chest' with oil and gas money amid revulsion at Bucha massacre - as Germany STILL refuses to back a ban on Russian energy (copied from The Daily Mail)

Liz Truss isn’t the brightest bulb in the box is she?

You might say that but it took the feeble attempts of several Foreign Secretaries making no progress before Liz Truss managed to get two Iranian hostages freed.

Back to the main point.

Oil

Realistically? No one can do anything to stop Russia doing exactly as it pleases, how it pleases and when.. China has its eye on Taiwan, and will now be aware that it too can strike where and when it pleases The EU is united in hand wringing , plus pious platitudes and nothing much else. America is run by the most incompetent president in living memory. No wonder the tyrants of this world rub their hands in glee and do exactly as they please, from the cutting down of the Amazon by Brazil, to the rape and murder of a three year old in Ukraine, the free world is, apart from bleating their disapproval, incapable of actually doing anything. And yes, Germany and the EU should be ashamed.

It was always there, under the ground and there it should stay -
Sanctions
And Russia (an ally of Iran)

It's all linked, isn't it.

….the free world is, apart from bleating their disapproval, incapable of actually doing anything…….

This is the problem isn’t it? We are all impotent because of the very things which we were told protect us. Nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are actually protecting Russia.

I used to be a member of CND and always went on marches.

Now I’m totally muddled about what I think.

I wasn’t a member of CND but I agreed with it’s aims. If we’d have been able to rid the world of nuclear weapons we wouldn’t have been in this position now, in my opinion, because I think NATO would have become involved. It’s the fact of nuclear weapons that has stopped any intervention from NATO in this case. If Putin puts a big toe over the border of a NATO country we’ll be in, for better or for worse. I don’t think he’ll do that though.

I agree, I don't think Putin will do that, lets hope and pray that he doesn't. The problem with banning anything is that once something is invented, you can't un-invent it so no matter what agreements are in place, somebody, somewhere at sometime may resurrect the formula. Complaining after the event would of course be too late.

Yes Jabberwok, the genie can’t be put back in the bottle. Imagine the problems of countries policing the nuclear weapon free option. We only need think of Iraq to see how difficult that is.

Went to get some shopping an hour ago and to meet a friend after for coffee, thought I’d pick up a news paper, there on the front of The Mirror, not a paper I’ve ever read myself, was a little 6 year old boy, standing next to a mound of earth which covered his dead mother, goodness knows what she suffered and he witnessed, I just felt the tears falling, came home I felt such a fool. I don’t have the news on now and don’t read about atrocities but I couldn’t miss that. There’s nothing we can do though it’s just too much for them to bear.

Allsorts, I totally sympathise with you. I feel the same that I can barely bear to hear about all these atrocities let alone see photographs, and yet I feel I must. This is why I feel so angry with the EU, Germany in particular for putting money before suffering people. Hand wringing and vague promises for six months time just won't do. By that time Ukraine will be a country of rubble, it's people reduced to ? It's just too shocking to contemplate. I would have thought that the annexing of Crimea would have rung a few warnings bells in the West as well as the incursion by Russia into Eastern Ukraine, but no, Europe and the US in its usual cavalier way knew better, when actually they didn't, and this is why Ukraine is now in this dreadful situation which we cannot, or being totally reliant on Russia, will not do anything concrete to alleviate.

Jaberwok no matter how often anyone tries to lay blame at the feet of the US, the EU, and Germany in particular, it doesn't make it true.

The only people with responsibility for this are Putin and his acolytes.

Since the invasion of Ukraine the EU has paid over £18 billion euros to Russia for gas, along with many billions for oil. Effectively keeping the Russian war machine afloat.

President Putin is the aggressor but however you look at it the EU is enabling him.

The last figures I could find regarding oil exports from Russia to EU are 2.3 billion barrels a day, over half of Russias oil exports.

Jaberwok

It's a pity that the EU especially Germany cannot bite the bullet and ban the importing of oil, has and coal that are clearly helping Putin fund this war and these appalling atrocities. Surely sovereign EU member states could act independently? Why don't they? Money clearly overrides people. Shameful organisation, thank god we're not members any more.

Ok. So if we were dependent upon Russia for oil and gas more than we are now,would you be happy to have manufacturing go into free fall? Have your heat and light limited? It is unfair to demand of others what we would not do ourselves. Germany are in a dilemma that's for sure.

volver

Jaberwok no matter how often anyone tries to lay blame at the feet of the US, the EU, and Germany in particular, it doesn't make it true.

The only people with responsibility for this are Putin and his acolytes.

Exactly.

The more you deflect the blame Jaberwok, the more you help Putin. Please just stop it.

GrannyGravy13

Since the invasion of Ukraine the EU has paid over £18 billion euros to Russia for gas, along with many billions for oil. Effectively keeping the Russian war machine afloat.

President Putin is the aggressor but however you look at it the EU is enabling him.

Its absolutely unfair to say that the EU is enabling Russia. "Enabling" implies an intention or a desire to let things happen. And I'm sure you don't believe that is true GG13

Russia's economy is forecast to contract by something like 10% this year, more than ever before (I'll try to find the article I read). Everyone's favourite bete noire, Germany, rely hugely on Russian fuel. It's not possible to do without all of the suppliers overnight or not only will we have disasters in Ukraine, we will have people dying in Germany as the power goes off and industry closes down. And its not like we stop paying Russia today and they pull out of Ukraine tomorrow.

So it is naive to say that the EU is keeping the Russian War machine afloat. Its going to take months to extricate ourselves from Russian involvement. And I mean ourselves; the UK is hardly squeaky clean in this, but its easy to think that the world works as easily as "turn off the gas, and the killing stops".

volver

GrannyGravy13

Since the invasion of Ukraine the EU has paid over £18 billion euros to Russia for gas, along with many billions for oil. Effectively keeping the Russian war machine afloat.

President Putin is the aggressor but however you look at it the EU is enabling him.

Its absolutely unfair to say that the EU is enabling Russia. "Enabling" implies an intention or a desire to let things happen. And I'm sure you don't believe that is true GG13

Russia's economy is forecast to contract by something like 10% this year, more than ever before (I'll try to find the article I read). Everyone's favourite bete noire, Germany, rely hugely on Russian fuel. It's not possible to do without all of the suppliers overnight or not only will we have disasters in Ukraine, we will have people dying in Germany as the power goes off and industry closes down. And its not like we stop paying Russia today and they pull out of Ukraine tomorrow.

So it is naive to say that the EU is keeping the Russian War machine afloat. Its going to take months to extricate ourselves from Russian involvement. And I mean ourselves; the UK is hardly squeaky clean in this, but its easy to think that the world works as easily as "turn off the gas, and the killing stops".

I didn’t say it would be easy volver , but there was a GN lynch mob on here the other day over a politicians wife having a 0.9% interest in an Indian Company who still had an office in Russia. This was without knowing if they were taking/receiving any monies from this company since the invasion.

Sanctions hurt, and if the EU is serious regarding sanctioning Russia they should have spent the last 40+ days sourcing gas/oil from elsewhere.

Yes, I am aware that the majority of Countries with the resources that Europe need are questionable, but we have to pick the least questionable and that rules out Russia on every single level.

Russians are using mobile crematoriums to cover up war crimes, claim Mariupol authorities.

Sanctions hurt, and if the EU is serious regarding sanctioning Russia they should have spent the last 40+ days sourcing gas/oil from elsewhere.

And who is saying that they're not?

www.euronews.com/green/2022/03/11/europe-scrambles-to-keep-the-lights-on-as-it-sidelines-russian-gas

Sanctions hurt, and if the EU is serious regarding sanctioning Russia they should have spent the last 40+ days sourcing gas/oil from elsewhere.

Sorry GG13, but surely you can't think that Germany can replace 40% of its fuel needs in just 40 days?

And I'm afraid its just a bit easier for a software and services company to withdraw from Russia than for an economy to completely renew its fuel supply needs.

This is the article I read: news.sky.com/story/the-west-is-chipping-away-at-russias-ability-to-finance-its-violent-campaign-in-ukraine-12582864

The thing is GrannyGravy13* that the UK is also still dependent on Russian oil, so the pot is calling the kettle black if we condemn European countries who have much less alternative than we do.
.This little gem was hidden in the BBC News the other day.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60948439

MaizieD

^Sanctions hurt, and if the EU is serious regarding sanctioning Russia they should have spent the last 40+ days sourcing gas/oil from elsewhere.^

And who is saying that they're not?

www.euronews.com/green/2022/03/11/europe-scrambles-to-keep-the-lights-on-as-it-sidelines-russian-gas

Trying to reduce reliance on Russian gas by 2023 right at the beginning of the article.

Hopefully the war will be over by then.

DaisyAnne, like everyone on here I am entitled to post what comments I please provided they don't break the rules governing these threads,and it is not for you to dictate otherwise,so perhaps you will desist in your attempts to do so. I do not agree with your comment and I am entitled to say just that. Yes I would be prepared to have my utilities reduced to help the people of Ukraine. I was an adult with young children during the three day week restrictions in 1973/74 , and you'd be amazed at how easy it was to cope even in January once you got used to the system. Obviously people these days would consider it an enormous deprivation having been spoon fed for donkeys years,but actually it's not, nothing like as bad as being bombed, shelled,raped, murdered, kidnapped ,without mercy when nothing will save you, age, sex, illness nothing

I wish I understood international economics and geopolitics like some other Grans on here. I must start reading the Daily Mail and the Express. And watching GB News.