The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

I am so glad I understand biology, and even without a medical degree can appreciate that sex is fixed and immutable. I can't begin to imagine how hard it must be to not realise that incantations change nothing. Born a male, die a male, no matter any surgery or hormones undertaken. It's amazing but there are a number of transwomen who also accept the science. What a shame lots of ignorant non-trans don't. Debbie Hayton has done the full surgical sex reassignment but still knows she is male. No doubt some on here would presume to tell her she is wrong, their arrogance knows no bounds.

Waiting

VioletSky

Rosie51 I was talking about Indian's unkind comments (if the source is to be trusted but I'm taking it at face value)

Could you apologise for your response please.

They are on twitter if you care to search and are absolutely true, I do hope you're not accusing me of telling lies. No I won't be apologising. If you post obtuse comments that don't clearly express to whom you're referring then expect to be called out, especially as you have been critical and very unkind to those of us that respect sex based rights.

Don't hold your breath VS

VioletSky

Waiting

For Christmas.... the summer holidays.... or just entitlement?

Not really Rosie51 I said I couldn't engage if people were misgnendering trans people, you didn't misgender her, so I engaged.

You could have just politely asked me to clarify but you decided to go with a meaning that's clearly not how I normally engage.

You don't have to apologise but you were still wrong

No I wasn't wrong it's your interpretation that's 100% wrong, but hey you do you. I'm polite enough to refer to India as 'she' although she lacks any consideration or politeness to anyone else, but she's a male (normally referred to as a man), born male will die male no matter how delusional she is.

And as an aside refresh me how you apologised for using 'cis' after many, many requests to desist from a highly offensive term.

Haven't called you cis Rosie and there aren't any laws pertaining to that one, we just don't agree on whether it's offensive. If it's ever deemed legally offensive I'll stop using it

Apart from that, your perception is your perception

VioletSky

trisher I've always gone through life not being judgemental...

?????????????????

VioletSky

varian

I have long thought it was very unhygenic to have to open the door of a cubicle before you could wash your hands.

Why not have fully equipped unisex loos?

I prefer this idea too, I also hate communal changing areas.

I went into some at a pub that were like that and they also had an emergency button that would call a member of staff if needed... I thought that was amazing and very forward thinking if someone was unwell or didn't feel safe

That toilet sounds like a "disabled " toilet which have been in existence for many years.

Not any sort of "forward thinking".

Some need a RADAR key, to make sure only those disabled use them, as there were a lot of arguments, at one time, about able bodied/fit people using them, and those in wheelchairs having to wait ages.

Other premises allow everyone to use them.

VS your comments very much sound as though you are calling us (those who don’t agree with you) crappy people, and that you don’t trust my post as the source of the information. Your attempt to deny this is a blatant attempt at gaslighting. Rude. And ‘not in the spirit of GN’, should anyone wish to report. I only report spam posts, however, so I’ll leave it. Others will make up their own minds what you meant.

As for ‘misgendering’, policing people’s posts and language in this way isn’t going to work, as it is more nuanced than you are suggesting/dictating. People have their own views, but speaking for myself, I would always refer to someone like IW, who has surgically transitioned and is very clearly attempting to live as a woman as ‘she’. I don’t believe that she is a woman in a biological sense, but I see it in much the same way as I would call an adoptive parent a parent - to all intents and purposes that’s what she is. I would also address anyone who ‘presents as’ a woman (even without surgery), as ‘she’, as I am not a boor, would not deliberately embarrass anyone, and prefer politeness to rudeness, on the whole. Online, I address people how they ask to be addressed - it is the only sensible way, as who knows who they are behind their usernames or avatars?

If, however, I am confronted (online or off) with a someone with a deep voice, a full beard, an Adam’s apple and male-pattern baldness who wants to be called Edna and join the WI, I draw the line. I would not consider it ‘misgendering’ to see that person as male, and will be neither bullied nor coerced into pretending otherwise. Calling him ‘she’ would simply be buying into the notion that a woman is anyone who says they are a woman, and I do not agree that this is true.

You may disagree. You may ‘refuse to engage’. You may start trying to pretend your posts are addressing trisher so that you still get to join in ?. You may even leave us to carry on without you. All of that is for you to decide - no skin off my nose either way. Others’ mileage may vary, though - these things are not set in stone, and it is not for any of us to impose our own ways onto others. In my opinion.

I never use she to describe anyone of the male sex. I think it is part of why we are scrabbling around trying to protect womens spaces. He should not be in a womans prison is very different to she should not be in a womans prison. I see it as a deliberate tactic and I just dont do it. Its also to do with my fear of compelled speech. I just use someones name.

Why do you need to have "cis" to be "defined as legally offensive" before you will stop using the term violet sky?

It's either offensive as in the use of the "n" word or the "p" word or it's not. Are we, as a society, truly only not using those vile words because they have been deemed "legally offensive"?

Galaxy

I never use she to describe anyone of the male sex. I think it is part of why we are scrabbling around trying to protect womens spaces. He should not be in a womans prison is very different to she should not be in a womans prison. I see it as a deliberate tactic and I just dont do it. Its also to do with my fear of compelled speech. I just use someones name.

Nor me. It's not defined as legally offensive, so I'm not getting into it.

Men and women are what they are - they can identify as to whatever they like, they can call themselves whatever they like, but no reason for everyone to have to join in with it.?

It's getting ridiculous - crime, prison and hospital stats are all getting distorted, because of not sticking to the basics of biological identity.

And that debbie hayton is a man because he says so ( he is not a man because he says so he is a man because of his sex) and others arent men because they say magic words. Its also an interesting understanding of identity which is more a social agreement I think and not sonething that can be demanded by one person.

doodledog just report me, I've explained what I meant, you can absolutely see it was a reply to what was being asked about one trans individuals behaviour.

It's also very general because it says crappy people exist everywhere, even in the group I feel most comfortable in because no one's perfect. So report me.

Or keep accusing me of abusive behaviours even though it must be blatantly obvious I would find that upsetting

You are wrong.

Nannee49

Why do you need to have "cis" to be "defined as legally offensive" before you will stop using the term violet sky?

It's either offensive as in the use of the "n" word or the "p" word or it's not. Are we, as a society, truly only not using those vile words because they have been deemed "legally offensive"?

I would agree with you if I was using the word to discriminate against women as those other words you mentioned were used to discriminate and are legally offensive. Cis just means "this side" the same way trans means "that side".

I don't discriminate against women in any way and uphold their need for safe spaces and believe those rights should not be lost, as I've always said.

We do need to differentiate between women and trans women because we will always have differences that mean we may need different health care both mentally and physically.

It's simply used as a way to differentiate.

But even so, even though its slipped out in conversation once or twice because in other circles no one minds it and I've defended it's use, I have actually passed up many many opportunities to use it when I remember.

We do need to differentiate between women and trans women and this does just that, without the need for any other qualifiers.

An informative and well written article Chewbacca, thanks for the link.

Like you Galaxy I would use someone's name rather than refer to someone who is obviously male as she.

As you say DL statistics are getting distorted where TW are referred too as women and TM as men. Important information at risk of being skewed.

Exactly Rosie referring to women as women and TW as trans women clearly differentiates between the two so nothing else is needed.

I don't agree Rosie because I can't tell who is trans or not by looking. Neither can a lot of people or women who were assigned female at birth (I need a term to be clear and consisen don't I) are being attacked in toilets.

Given that many trans people face discrimination, I don't expect them to reveal that about themselves because they may put themselves in danger in some situations.

So I claim the word cis, I'm a cis woman. I need the care due a cis woman, I am entitled to use the spaces set aside for cis women. I'll defend others right to that care and those spaces as I always have.

That makes no sense at all. How does using a word help with what you can or cannot tell visually?
And you weren't assigned female at birth you were observed to be female at birth. Your parents did assign a name or names to you which they duly registered as per the law within 6 weeks of your birth. You can change the name/s assigned to you at birth as many times as you please, you cannot change the sex observed at your birth no matter how many magic words you say.

VioletSky

I don't agree Rosie because I can't tell who is trans or not by looking. Neither can a lot of people or women who were assigned female at birth (I need a term to be clear and consisen don't I) are being attacked in toilets.

Given that many trans people face discrimination, I don't expect them to reveal that about themselves because they may put themselves in danger in some situations.

So I claim the word cis, I'm a cis woman. I need the care due a cis woman, I am entitled to use the spaces set aside for cis women. I'll defend others right to that care and those spaces as I always have.

You are perfectly entitled to claim the prefix you want to.

But, as with the N word, and the P word, you need to understand that other women, such as myself, find it offensive and uneccesary.

I'm not a CIS anything - I'm just a female human - a woman.

I need the care that any biological woman needs, and biological men, whatever they label themselves as, need the same care as other biological men.

Certain needs and care are only linked to biological sex. A man does not need a cervical smear, and a woman does not need a prostate examination.

No that's not true either Diamondlily

For instance, a trans women may be taking hormones that grow breast tissue and be called for breast screening at the appropriate time

It's either offensive as in the use of the "n" word or the "p" word or it's not. Are we, as a society, truly only not using those vile words because they have been deemed "legally offensive"

If you don't understand it is the context those words were used in and the history behind them that makes them offensive then you need look at black history and gay history.
And actually both words are used by the people who belong to the communities involved and are not seen in that context as offensive.
Cis has very little history. It was coined as a way of distiguishing between transwomen and natal women. If some women find it offensive that's fine they can ask for it not to be used. But not all women think that. Some of us just find it an easier term to use if we need to distinguish. I'm a cis-woman. Easy!