The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

Rosie51

trisher

By the way if anyone doesn't know Charlie's partner (also non-binary but descibed as 'more feminine') was left in a cubicle trying on dresses which was why Charlie was sitting outside. So not only discrimination but unequal discrimination. Monsoon don't have a leg to stand on.

Charlie's partner may also be non-binary and described as 'more feminine presenting' but the pertinent fact is what sex is Charlie's partner? Charlie is male sex no matter any variation in Charlie's head.

So not only discrimination but unequal discrimination.
I've just read your post again. Are you telling us that Charlie's partner is also male but just presents as 'more feminine' otherwise your argument is totally false? I haven't read anywhere the sex of the partner, where did you see it?

An important piece of information which appears to have been overlooked Rosie. Charlie's partner could have been of the female sex, identifying as non-binary.

Doesn't really matter though if two people are identifying as non-binary and you discriminate between them on the ground of appearance you are undoubredly being discriminatory. You could argue that Monsoon only catered for females but as Charlie's partner identifies as non-binary that can't strictly be true can it.
It is a classic example of how discrimination works and how trying to judge gender by appearance doesn't work.

In other words you don't know but strongly suspect (or even know) that Charlie's partner is female. Did they actually have "non binary" stamped on their foreheads so everybody knew they came under the same umbrella as male Charlie? As stated a million and one times, people can 'identify' how they like they can't change their sex. If as is probable Charlie's partner is female then of course she would be allowed in the female changing room without any problem to the Muslim families that were already there. I know you clearly demonstrate Islamophobic views, but the changing rooms in a women's clothing shop haven't had to specify females only at any one time until very recently. Your lack of respect for Muslims doesn't paint you as terribly inclusive, where's your intersectional feminism for them?

Still not prepared to honestly answer whether you're for or against the campaigns to remove the single sex exemptions from the EA?

And what about guards assaulting women Gordon Bennett trisher! Whatabout! whatabout! whatabout!...... who, on this thread, or on any other thread on this subject, has EVER said that ANY sexual assault on women, by ANY man is acceptable??? Guards assaulting any prisoner, whether that's sexually, mentally, physically or emotionally is 100% unacceptable. It is just as reprehensible as any other penis haver assaulting a vulnerable woman but especially if that penis haver has gained access to those vulnerable women by pretending to be a woman. Your clutching at the slimmest of straws lately.

maddyone

It really should be very simple. A person who has a penis should not be able to use spaces which are designated for use by women. A dress doesn’t make a person female, neither does long hair or stiletto shoes, nor a face full of make up, nor stating that he identifies as a woman. I could identify as a unicorn, but it doesn’t make me a unicorn. A female person has a vagina, ovaries, a cervix, and a uterus. It’s not as complicated as men like to make it.

Exactly.
Anybody with a functioning penis is a man.
Its ridiculous to think otherwise.

Another indication that the voices of reason are getting louder and demanding to be heard: this is a small excerpt from an article in the Times yesterday:

Women are concerned not about trans people (who really are a small minority) but about the potential for abuse of the rules by predatory men. We know this will happen because it has already happened and keeps happening.

And who is it, by their actions against females, is causing the greatest concern about TW?

Was a poster actually there?
Did I miss something? Or are they extrapolating ‘facts’ from other situations where they haven’t been either?

Chewbacca

^And what about guards assaulting women^ Gordon Bennett trisher! Whatabout! whatabout! whatabout!...... who, on this thread, or on any other thread on this subject, has EVER said that ANY sexual assault on women, by ANY man is acceptable??? Guards assaulting any prisoner, whether that's sexually, mentally, physically or emotionally is 100% unacceptable. It is just as reprehensible as any other penis haver assaulting a vulnerable woman but especially if that penis haver has gained access to those vulnerable women by pretending to be a woman. Your clutching at the slimmest of straws lately.

But no one was assaulted by a transperson in that article Chewbacca. Two women had consexual sex with one or more transwomen and got pregnant. There was no assault. So what you are in fact saying is that no women should be allowed to have sex with transwomen even if they want to.
Now there is undoubtedly a case for seperate prison facilities for transpeople, but this account doesn't actually support that case. It does however show the horrific level of violence permitted in US women's prisons. and I just checked some of those in riot gear are women.
So if you posted it to demonstrate something about transwomen in prisons it doesn't show what you claimed it did.
In fact it shows just the opposite that some women don't mind a trans woman with a working penis.

You don't know much about the size of teenage boys do you Doodledog? They generally come in somewhere between a 12 and a 14. They are usually very slim. Real muscle growth doesn't start until later (unless they are part of the sports elite who use various methods to build unnatural muscle development).
No more than any mother of a son, no - why would I? My remembrance is that (like women) they come in all shapes and sizes though, and at 18 none of my son's friends would have fitted into any of my clothes, but that wasn't the main point of my post.

If you want men to wear dresses you ought at least to cater to them.
I don't care what people wear. I don't cater to anyone's clothing choices, and I doubt that Monsoon goes out of its way to cater to men either, what with being a women's clothing store and all.

Rosie51

In other words you don't know but strongly suspect (or even know) that Charlie's partner is female. Did they actually have "non binary" stamped on their foreheads so everybody knew they came under the same umbrella as male Charlie? As stated a million and one times, people can 'identify' how they like they can't change their sex. If as is probable Charlie's partner is female then of course she would be allowed in the female changing room without any problem to the Muslim families that were already there. I know you clearly demonstrate Islamophobic views, but the changing rooms in a women's clothing shop haven't had to specify females only at any one time until very recently. Your lack of respect for Muslims doesn't paint you as terribly inclusive, where's your intersectional feminism for them?

*Still not prepared to honestly answer whether you're for or against the campaigns to remove the single sex exemptions from the EA?*

So now I'm Islamaphobic as well as mysoginistic really the abuse on here is remarkable and all one sided. I'm not apparently supposed to call anyone transphobic
Anyway segregation of the sexes is not agreed on as a necessity of Islam and owes more to cultural mores and the country of origin than it does to religion. In fact there is even a women's movement which is trying to stop gender segregation in mosques. It is extraordinary that women who practise the religion refuse to accept discrimination whilst other women support it.
Would you like to apologise now?

Two women had sex wirh one man. Fact.
A man made two women pregnant. Fact.
A transwoman wirh a penis is not a woman. Fact.
A woman cannot get another woman pregnant. Fact.

Not difficult is it?

VioletSky

Again doodledog I agree with everything the act says and its examples of what constitutes direct or indirect discrimination so if that's not going to be respected the same way I respect the protections women rightfully deserve, or you will all have to carry on without me.

We either agree that all protected characteristics matter, comments to me show acceptance towards trans peoples rights and we continue discussion from a place of respect for each other or I'm not going to engage

You used the example of a teacher not using a child's preferred name at school to illustrate what you see as discrimination against a non-binary adult in a shop.

What exactly is it that you want to be respected? Everyone is respecting the right of all concerned to act within the law. The law makes it very clear that changing rooms are exemptions to the Equality Act. None of that is about you. Pointing out the law is not being disrespectful to you. I'm not sure what you are asking for here.

Engage, don't engage - your prerogative, but please don't suggest that I am not respectful of transpeople's rights - I am. I just don't put them ahead of the rights of others, and in this instance neither does the law.

Yes, sex segregation is cultural. In a multi cultural society we should respect cultures that differ from our own as long as they are not breaking the law. We should not automatically assume that our western culture is the only valid culture, even if we think it would be better not to have so much sex segregation. This is part of this whole difficulty of trying to make things fair for all of us.
This is why #no debate will not lead to any compromise.

In fact it shows just the opposite that some women don't mind a trans woman with a working penis.
That's what my (lesbian) friend was told (more crudely) by the transwoman who assaulted her when she refused to have sex. It is chilling to see it repeated here, and confirms the suspicions I have held for some time.

So now I'm Islamaphobic as well as mysoginistic really the abuse on here is remarkable and all one sided. you were the one who complained a group of Muslim men had taken over a green area of the park by sitting together there. You never did clarify if they actually stopped you sharing the space, so I assume they didn't and it was Islamophobia that stopped you.
As for the abuse, you never stop with the accusations.
This is what you posted to Chewbacca
Two women pregnant after having consensual sex with a transgender prisoner bothers you! But a video of a naked woman being beaten and punched by male guards in full riot gear is ignored. Well now I really know what the priority is here castigte the trans and bugger what happens to women who are abused by men.

Would you like to apologise now? no, it's fine, you go first.

Still not prepared to honestly answer whether you're for or against the campaigns to remove the single sex exemptions from the EA?

doodledog it's either direct discrimination to misgender someone or it isn't, which do you think is the case?

If it's direct discrimination are you happy and comfortable to engage in discussion with others that directly discriminate?

I'm not and I've said so, if you think that's making the discussion about me, I don't care.

VioletSky
it's either direct discrimination to misgender someone or it isn't, which do you think is the case.

When a TW misrepresents himself as an AHF, who do you think is misgendering whom?

That's not what you said in your last post, though. Where do you mention 'misgendering' here?:

Again doodledog I agree with everything the act says and its examples of what constitutes direct or indirect discrimination so if that's not going to be respected the same way I respect the protections women rightfully deserve, or you will all have to carry on without me. We either agree that all protected characteristics matter, comments to me show acceptance towards trans peoples rights and we continue discussion from a place of respect for each other or I'm not going to engage

You can't expect people to know what you mean if you don't say it.

When it comes to non-binary people it can be very difficult to know what to call them. By definition they don't identify with a gender, so how can they be 'misgendered'? If they tell you, you can refer to them how they prefer, but if they are simply a customer in a shop, how is anyone meant to know?

The act may have been consensual but it should never have happened because an intact male with a working penis should never be incarcerated in a woman's prison. Some women may be OK with that, but not all women will be; what about those women or don't they count? Are they perhaps the 'wrong type of woman'?

The example you gave of what you saw in the park trisher is based on your assumption that the women and children seated away from their men folk were forced and therefore unhappy with the arrangement.

If you'd seen a large gathering of non Muslim families, where the women and children were seated away from the men, presumably you wouldn't have given that a second thought, but made an assumption in this case because they were Muslim.

I agree Ilovecheese "we should respect cultures that differ from our own as long as they are not breaking the law", and we shouldn't assume that those engaged in something that we would not be content to do, are doing so under duress.

Rosie51

^So now I'm Islamaphobic as well as mysoginistic really the abuse on here is remarkable and all one sided.^ you were the one who complained a group of Muslim men had taken over a green area of the park by sitting together there. You never did clarify if they actually stopped you sharing the space, so I assume they didn't and it was Islamophobia that stopped you.
As for the abuse, you never stop with the accusations.
This is what you posted to Chewbacca
Two women pregnant after having consensual sex with a transgender prisoner bothers you! But a video of a naked woman being beaten and punched by male guards in full riot gear is ignored. Well now I really know what the priority is here castigte the trans and bugger what happens to women who are abused by men.

Would you like to apologise now? no, it's fine, you go first.

*Still not prepared to honestly answer whether you're for or against the campaigns to remove the single sex exemptions from the EA?*

So being intimidated by a large group of men who don't treat women as equals and regulate them to a certain area, and believe me women were not welcome there, is not considered worthy of support. Well just shows how deep some feminst principles go doesn't it. Wrong sort of woman again! Nothing mysoginistic about that is there.
If you were with your grandchild and a large (maybe 50 or more ) group of men were standing in one area, having relegated the women they arrived with to seperate area. would you really care to confront them?
As I said before gender segregation is no requirement of Islam. So sorry it can't be Islamaphobia. It's a bit too like what happens in the Handmaid's Tale though isn't it? So why would it bother you? No Trans involved.

Have you become a spokesperson for Chewbacca now?

Ilovecheese

Yes, sex segregation is cultural. In a multi cultural society we should respect cultures that differ from our own as long as they are not breaking the law. We should not automatically assume that our western culture is the only valid culture, even if we think it would be better not to have so much sex segregation. This is part of this whole difficulty of trying to make things fair for all of us.
This is why #no debate will not lead to any compromise.

So how far do you want to take this respect for culture. women relegated to certain places seems to be OK. What about FGM that's a cultural thing should we respect it?

Doodledog

*In fact it shows just the opposite that some women don't mind a trans woman with a working penis.*
That's what my (lesbian) friend was told (more crudely) by the transwoman who assaulted her when she refused to have sex. It is chilling to see it repeated here, and confirms the suspicions I have held for some time.

Of course it's wrong for anyone to be assaulted by anyone else. But I don't gather these women were. Are you saying women can't choose to have sex if they want to?

snowberryZ

Two women had sex wirh one man. Fact.
A man made two women pregnant. Fact.
A transwoman wirh a penis is not a woman. Fact.
A woman cannot get another woman pregnant. Fact.

Not difficult is it?

Translate it how you like. It was voluntary.