The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

How do you know they were regulated to a certain area? You don't unless of course you asked them; did you? How do you know "women were not welcome there"? Was something said to you? Was their body language in any way aggressive? Were you made to feel uncomfortable?

Of course women can choose to have sex if they want too but these women were in prison. They hadn't been given conjugal rights, they had sex with a man who shouldn't have been incarcerated in a woman's prison.

People do understand what will happen to a child born in prison dont they? Or is that not important. We segregate by sex for many reasons with regard to pridons, trying to avoid children being born in prison is one of them.

Smileless2012

How do you know they were regulated to a certain area? You don't unless of course you asked them; did you? How do you know "women were not welcome there"? Was something said to you? Was their body language in any way aggressive? Were you made to feel uncomfortable?

Of course women can choose to have sex if they want too but these women were in prison. They hadn't been given conjugal rights, they had sex with a man who shouldn't have been incarcerated in a woman's prison.

The women were in the fenced off play area, not one of them or even one child left the area or went anywhere near the piece of grass surrounded on three sides by bushes where the men were. As I walked by on the path with my DGS a few of the men looked up at me. It wan't a welcoming look. I suppose perhaps some of you imagine that this sort of segregation doesn't happen here, but it does.

trisher Have you become a spokesperson for Chewbacca now? no she's perfectly capable doesn't need a spokeswoman, or man come to that. It was just the latest of your whataboutery insults I remembered.

Still not prepared to honestly answer whether you're for or against the campaigns to remove the single sex exemptions from the EA? so very telling! There's no "I condemn all" option to that one is there. It's either support or oppose.

Galaxy

People do understand what will happen to a child born in prison dont they? Or is that not important. We segregate by sex for many reasons with regard to pridons, trying to avoid children being born in prison is one of them.

No idea if these children will be born in prison or not, suppose it depends on the length of sentence.
And perhaps the women shouldn't be having sex, but they did.

Nice bit of whataboutery there trisher!

Doodledog

That's not what you said in your last post, though. Where do you mention 'misgendering' here?:

Again doodledog I agree with everything the act says and its examples of what constitutes direct or indirect discrimination so if that's not going to be respected the same way I respect the protections women rightfully deserve, or you will all have to carry on without me. We either agree that all protected characteristics matter, comments to me show acceptance towards trans peoples rights and we continue discussion from a place of respect for each other or I'm not going to engage

You can't expect people to know what you mean if you don't say it.

When it comes to non-binary people it can be very difficult to know what to call them. By definition they don't identify with a gender, so how can they be 'misgendered'? If they tell you, you can refer to them how they prefer, but if they are simply a customer in a shop, how is anyone meant to know?

This is a relatively new subject to me too and I don't expect people to get it right because all of us make mistakes, I'm talking about when it is deliberate which happened to Charlie at the end of the first thread. They don't identify as "he".

When trans women are called men, that's also wrong and direct discrimination.

I do make the effort in most cases to use "they" or "them" when I'm not sure of gender but then, those words have always been used for that purpose so it was an easy thing

Tbh it feels to me by engaging with any comment that uses direct discrimination I'm enabling that behaviour so I'm not doing it anymore.

No need for you to take that personally because I simply let you know that was the case... You just happened to be the one who brought my name to the new thread.

Its up to you what you enable

That doesn't mean they were under duress to be there trisher you are making assumptions. Understandably not nice to be on the receiving end of a look that isn't welcoming, but again you're making assumptions.

You assume you were looked at the way you were because you're a woman and perhaps were too near their space. Are either of those scenarios very likely when they live in a country where they're in a minority and as a consequence will see women like you and me, on a daily basis?

There's no perhaps about it trisher those women shouldn't have been having sex while in prison unless they'd been granted conjugal rights, and if that man hadn't been incarcerated with them, they wouldn't have been able too would they.

No my belief that you cant change sex is protected under law. If you dont want to engage with people who hold that belief it is obviously up to you.

Galaxy

No my belief that you cant change sex is protected under law. If you dont want to engage with people who hold that belief it is obviously up to you.

It doesn't matter

It's disrespectful, sometimes harmful and discriminatory.

Of course that's your choice

Of course it's my choice to not engage with that any more when it's directed at me in a comment or contained in a comment otherwise.

When trans women are called men, that's also wrong and direct discrimination.

When an adult human has a penis and testicles they are called men and that's a biological and scientific fact and so is correct. HTH.

Sorry are you saying the law doesnt matter? That the rulings that were passed with regard to gender critical belief dont matter?

It doesn't matter Yes, it does. It is a biological fact that humans cannot change sex

It's disrespectful Women are being disrespected by having penis havers (males) in their safe spaces, refuges, prisons and in their sports. Why should I respect a male who isn't showing women any respect?

sometimes harmful Penis havers have been harming women for millennia and continue to do so at an ever accelerating rate. Why are men so important ,that what might harm them, is so much more important than the harm being done to women?

and discriminatory Women have been discriminated against in the home, in the workplace, legally, monetarily and in public life all their lives. If penis havers want to be be like women they'd better get used to discrimination because that's what being a woman entails.

Of course it's my choice to not engage with that any more when it's directed at me in a comment or contained in a comment otherwise. Engage or don't engage; no one's forcing you and no one would be bothered either way. The discussion is a great deal bigger than the sum of its parts.

Of course it's my choice to not engage with that any more when it's directed at me in a comment or contained in a comment otherwise.

The women were in the fenced off play area, not one of them or even one child left the area or went anywhere near the piece of grass surrounded on three sides by bushes where the men were. As I walked by on the path with my DGS a few of the men looked up at me. It wan't a welcoming look. I suppose perhaps some of you imagine that this sort of segregation doesn't happen here, but it does.

It does. I've seen it too, both in a park (possibly the same one) and on a train.

It's wrong, and it's unpleasant, and no, I don't support or endorse that sort of segregation. I think the people concerned have a right to live as their faith dictates, if that is what they want to do, but not to impose it onto others, particularly the majority group in a wider society.

I also think that a minority group, such as non-binary people in a women's clothes shop shouldn't impose their own ways onto others, though.

It isn't easy to balance different needs. The park situation resembles the way you keep saying that the law supports women who don't want to be amongst transwomen who are undressing or whatever. The Jewish men you mention had no right to tell you to leave the park, or to keep away from 'their' area, but they were able to make you feel uncomfortable enough to want to do so, and I do understand how that feels.

Why do you think that that is wrong, yet when transwomen do it to women it is simply living their lives and asking for inclusion?

I would feel the same as you Trisher in the park scenario, but there are laws to protect us if the men actually harmed us. As things are it is just different and rather uncomfortable, because is does not allay with western culture.
It's nothing to do with changing rooms, refuges or prisons though. Except that a woman who has been a victim of actual violence from men may well feel trauma rather than discomfort if a male enters those spaces.

Crossed posts obvs.

One of the reasons this issue raised red flags with me was in relation to freedom of speech, and my fear of compelled speech. I wondered if anyone has been watching the Owen Jones saga and what you think. I think Owen Jones is a misogynist but I suppose I feel hypocritcal about being pleased about his speech being controlled so to speak. And yes I understand that it was about breaking social media guidelines but I am just not sure if calling each other names gets us anywhere. She says after calling him a misogynist

Except that a woman who has been a victim of actual violence from men may well feel trauma rather than discomfort if a male enters those spaces.

Precisely so Ilovecheese and that's the point that we've been labouring over for months and months and months but are repeatedly told: you won't even know that they are men even though a blind man on a galloping horse could tell. We're told that women who do want a space away from men are being disrespectful and causing them harm I cannot, for the life of me, understand why any woman is so willing to kow tow to male demands, no matter how bizarre they are and at what cost to women, and put it all under the banner of "Because I'm kind, understanding and inclusive".

Galaxy

Sorry are you saying the law doesnt matter? That the rulings that were passed with regard to gender critical belief dont matter?

Well, I'm entitled to be an atheist but that doesn't mean I have to deliberately say harmful things directly to Christians or tell them where they do and don't belong based on our difference of belief

Just as its your choice if you discriminate, if doing so causes harm well, it's your choice how you feel about that

I don't understand why that's a problem?

Also you must meet all 5 criteria

Also has this part of the ruling changed or does it still stand?

Because it appears that misgendering is not protected at all

What is the context of those clips, VS? Who must meet all 5 criteria? And criteria for what?

I am not asking this for asking's sake - I just have no idea of the relevance of the clips/screenshots. Who hasn't provided safe workplaces for transgender people? We are talking about a customer in a shop, not an employee. Aren't we?

Those are the rules that relate to the "protection of gender critical beliefs" as mentioned..

That's what I found anyway, from solicitors website

Fairly explanatory if you read back

Clips from unspecified sources, taken out of context?
Which solicitor’s website. Please provide link so that we can see the full picture.