So ... no more fines for Boris!

I suppose when he left his sick wife the argument was it wasn’t his fault it was his mistresses. Another thing people forget is I don’t think we’ve ever had a PM in Downing Street with a live in lover (I, as a child of the sixties am no prude but it surprised me that ‘conservative’ Conservative voters were happy about that ).The bar of decency in this country just gets lower and lower. Morals, law, both international and domestic; environmental….and people now just accept that that is how it is because, as they’ve been gaslighted into believing ‘there’s no alternative ’. There is, actually, even an alternative of a morally responsible Conservative government but the party itself seem to be incapable of achieving that. I can’t actually believe what’s happening.

Has anyone ever wondered why the MET, after saying there was nothing to investigate, changed their mind?
Was it because the Good Law Project threatened to take the ,MET to court, if they continued to ignore the evidence gathered by Sue Gray. YES.
The MET was forced into a u-turn by the Good Law Project.
So, did they then send their top team of Detectives to do face to face interviews with the accused, under oath? NO
Did they send experienced middle grade officers? NO
Did they send raw recruits to give them some interview practice? NO
Our biggest, most staffed Police Force in the Four Kingdoms cynically sent questionnaires.
And still Johnson earned a fine. Even with the legal brains who would have been helping him to fill it out. He still was fined.
And some people think justice has been done.
(PS the Good Law Project is currently taking the MET to court on another issue, but that's for a different thread.

He is absolutely not a big picture man. He's more like a frog who hops from one lily pad to another. He has absolutely no vision for the country, his vision is to stay in power and and enrich his class.

Petera
I just don’t think this is a good time to change PM tbh. I’m not a massive Boris fan but I do like the way he’s been quite ballsy with Putin.

Ou mean while, at the same time, making it incredibly difficult for people from Ukraine to come here?

MaizieD

^TBH, I don't think many people believe we're heading towards fascism.^

But we very clearly are. I don't have to argue it out with you, do I, Dickens? I think you can see it too.

... yes, I think we most definitely are.

But I'm not convinced that so many believe it. Because it's insidious... Machiavellian.

Looking at some of the comments - particularly when this is being discussed on other social media sites - it would appear that people think fascism arrives with jack boots on the streets rather than by stealth.

That was my point. I'm certainly not defending those who can't see what is happening.

Looking at some of the comments - particularly when this is being discussed on other social media sites - it would appear that people think fascism arrives with jack boots on the streets rather than by stealth.

Funnily enough, a year ago, say, if anyone mentioned our slide towards fascism on here they were mostly rubbished by other posters. Now it passes without comment.

But, OTOH, we don't get many government supporters posting on the News & Politics threads any more.

(P.S I was desperately trying to word my previous answer so as not to give the impression that I was getting at you.. I obviously don't have a way with words today )

Secretsquirrel1

Thank God for that. Tbh I think we’ve got more pressing things to deal with right now. I’d like both parties to just cooperate and concentrate on Russia (and the looming economic crisis)
I personally think Putin poses such a huge threat to us, more than ever the worse his war is going for him, so whether or not Boris or Starmer had social gatherings during lockdown, although of importance, aren’t actually the main priority at this dangerous time.

Oh how I agree with you Secretsquirrell. With so many major problems at the moment, for goodness sake please just let them get on with the job. The rest of the world must be falling about laughing at how much time, energy and money has gone into investigating these so called parties whilst other real crimes go unpunished

MaizieD

TanaMa

I should have thought Putin was a more suitable person to villify at the moment! Also why not the same amount of flack for the saintly Keir Starmer??

Putin is Russia's problem, not ours. I'm more concerned about our deeply corrupt and fascist leaning government.

Why on earth should Starmer be getting any flak?

Why shouldn’t Starmer get any flak? He had a pre-arranged get together, drinking beer, lying about whether Angela Rayner was present and is being investigated by the Durham police. He is daring the police to fine him by threatening to resign if fined and he knows Durham don’t issue retrospective fines. He’a a lawyer so he knows his way around the law

yet more lies, thats the real reason for party gate, not only breaking the rules but lying about it in parliament, also lying on a bus, lying about a Brett deal, lying that he gave money to his mistress Jennifer Arcuri, he has the gift of the gab and can talk his way out of anything, he's still a liar though

Why shouldn’t Starmer get any flak? He had a pre-arranged get together, drinking beer, lying about whether Angela Rayner was present and is being investigated by the Durham police. He is daring the police to fine him by threatening to resign if fined and he knows Durham don’t issue retrospective fines. He’a a lawyer so he knows his way around the law

You do know that that's a lot of rightwing rubbish, don't you? Desperate deflection from the incessant rule breaking that was going on in Downing Street.

sundowngirl

MaizieD

TanaMa

I should have thought Putin was a more suitable person to villify at the moment! Also why not the same amount of flack for the saintly Keir Starmer??

Putin is Russia's problem, not ours. I'm more concerned about our deeply corrupt and fascist leaning government.

Why on earth should Starmer be getting any flak?

Why shouldn’t Starmer get any flak? He had a pre-arranged get together, drinking beer, lying about whether Angela Rayner was present and is being investigated by the Durham police. He is daring the police to fine him by threatening to resign if fined and he knows Durham don’t issue retrospective fines. He’a a lawyer so he knows his way around the law

Yes. Unlike the PM he is a lawyer and understands the law. All Johnson does is break the law endlessly and then find ways to get away with it. Even international law. Nothing is sacred to him. He lied to the electorate. He lied to the Queen. He lied in parliament. He gets away with it now because everyone knows he lies and they’ve just got used to it. He constantly repeats the same lies in parliament but gets away with it because you’re not allowed to accuse someone of lying in parliament. Because it’s assumed that MP’s don’t lie in parliament

Literally consecutive posts

sundowngirl I think we’ve got more pressing things to deal with right now...., so whether or not Boris or Starmer had social gatherings during lockdown, although of importance, aren’t actually the main priority at this dangerous time.

sundowngirl Why shouldn’t Starmer get any flak? He had a pre-arranged get together, drinking beer,... He is daring the police to fine him

Yes, Petera another confused mumpsimus. I wonder if and when they [mumpsimusses] will ever look deeper and realise who and what is behind all this? I mean, it's not as if Richard Holden (new 2019 intake, majority in a red wall seat a mere 1144) doesn't have a motive including a great big public axe he wants to grind with the police over his own past.

OakDryad

Yes, Petera another confused mumpsimus. I wonder if and when they [mumpsimusses] will ever look deeper and realise who and what is behind all this? I mean, it's not as if Richard Holden (new 2019 intake, majority in a red wall seat a mere 1144) doesn't have a motive including a great big public axe he wants to grind with the police over his own past.

And it's not as if 'that video' had been taken by the son of a far right writer who couldn't possibly have 'just spotted him' as he walked past a building set nearly 100 yds from its entrance and at an angle to the road...

MaizieD

^Looking at some of the comments - particularly when this is being discussed on other social media sites - it would appear that people think fascism arrives with jack boots on the streets rather than by stealth.^

Funnily enough, a year ago, say, if anyone mentioned our slide towards fascism on here they were mostly rubbished by other posters. Now it passes without comment.

But, OTOH, we don't get many government supporters posting on the News & Politics threads any more.

(P.S I was desperately trying to word my previous answer so as not to give the impression that I was getting at you.. I obviously don't have a way with words today )

...I was desperately trying to word my previous answer so as not to give the impression that I was getting at you.. I obviously don't have a way with words today

I think I read it the 'wrong' way - but I'm not easily offended ... just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was going along with the somewhat (IMO) blinkered view that this government, or Johnson specifically, is just (to use Johnson's own terminology) "getting on with the job".

I think, if one sits back, and studies everything that has happened since he took office, it's quite clear that the country is being run by "pin-striped populism" (I read that somewhere). Johnson is running the country as if it's his own private business... he's a CEO - they don't 'persuade' they dictate. And fire those who disagree with them. As he did.

MaizieD It's people's refusal to look beyond the headline that frustrates me. A refusal to understand why a backbencher, barely noticed outside his own consituency, suddenly starts making a lot of noise. Could it be that, nervous of their own tenuous positions, they need a campaign to make themselves look like a crusading hero?

C/f Lee Anderson whose own attempt at self-aggrandizement has backfired spectacularly in his criticism of the poor and hungry and may have landed himself with a lawsuit to boot.

Mark Spencer has openly said the 2019 intake was poor. I wonder to what extent the party machine is using them as expendable cannon fodder.

The rest of the world must be falling about laughing at how much time, energy and money has gone into investigating these so called parties whilst other real crimes go unpunished

It is possible to read what the rest of the world thinks. By and large, they are horrified by Johnson et al. This is typical:

‘In the wake of the pandemic and the UK’s successful vaccination campaign, nothing seems to stick: not his catastrophic mismanagement at the beginning of the pandemic, nor his fractured relationship with the truth, not even the frequent cases of corruption within his cabinet. Furthermore, the growing damage done by Brexit to the British economy is rarely discussed in the country. Even his government’s increasingly authoritarian assaults on citizens seem to go unnoticed by the public. Johnson has shifted his party so far to the right that attacks on the justice system and the media are part of everyday life, with potentially fatal consequences for parliamentary democracy in the UK…’

You can read the whole thing - which is excoriating - here www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/07/politics-lies-boris-johnson-and-erosion-rule-law

Although it’s in the New Statesman, it is by German state TV journalist Annette Dittert.

It does seem that a lot of people posting here believe there are priorities greater than the truth.

If you look just at the ongoing covid question (and be clear, it has not "gone away", despite the number of times we've been told it has) then we need a prime minister who can be believed, e.g. when he tells people that a high per centage of vaccination in the community is the safest way forward. Currently huge numbers of people simply assume it's lies, like so much else that falls from his mouth.

If you just look at the Russia/Ukraine position, it would surely help to have some facts we could believe, rather than a mishmash of propaganda as believable as what comes out of Putin's mouth.
Meanwhile Boris has lied to us. Repeatedly. And it seems that people are divided: some being surprised that anything else is expected; others being surprised that anyone thinks it's relevant!

And as far as Partygate is concerned, the Met Police made it very clear that one of the criteria for retrospective investigation is that attendees had to know, or be reasonably expected to know, they were committing an offence. Sadly Boris has not yet demonstrated that level of intelligence! At least Keir is clear about what the law said at the time, and is prepared to be honest about it.

The police force is dependent on the government for funding and for agreeing to various measures requested by the police (eg the current request that special constables be allowed to carry and use tasers). So, in my opinion, they may well be disinclined to look too closely for any possible wrongdoing by a prime minister. Additionally, as has been said, police officers must have been aware that these get togethers were taking place but they did nothing to intervene. Much easier to fine ordinary young people £10,000 for arranging a snowball fight outside than to confront people in high office. Sue Gray is a senior civil servant, so not exactly an independent assessor and, in any event, even if she makes more critical comments, some areas of the mass media will just point to the police report as being the final word on the matter.

It is said that the police felt it unnecessary to name any individuals who have been fined, and it seems therefore a possibility that some people insist they were not found to have broken the rules, when in fact they were. After all, Johnson quite vociferously stated on several occasions that "no rules were broken", when it has been reported that he "popped in" on some of these occasions so and so must have known what he said was a lie. I don't understand why "popping in" is not still considered as breaking the rules. Apart from his individual responsibility, as prime minister surely he should have insisted that these events be called to a halt?

I think Johnson is an absolute disgrace and, by association, the majority of his party.

It is now being reported that Johnson has had “secret meetings”with Sue Grey.

Be interested to see if she has been nobbled when her report eventually appears.

We have left the select committee. Don’t hold out much faith in that really.

Fascism with a Tory face.

Sue Grey is reputed to be very tough cookie who weilds a great deal of power. I'm hoping that she is more than a match for Johnson. I can't see her being bothered about whether or not she lands him in great trouble with her report.

The biggest crime is that the Met investigation cost nearly £500k, that’s not including the cost of Sue Grays investigation. All to issue 120 fines at £100? massive waste of money.

Katie59

The biggest crime is that the Met investigation cost nearly £500k, that’s not including the cost of Sue Grays investigation. All to issue 120 fines at £100? massive waste of money.

It wouldn’t have been if they had done their job properly in the first place and not turned a blind eye to the law breaking in No 10.

The first fines would have been issued and we assume that no more parties would have been held.

Corrupt