Speaking the truth about brexit

happycatholicwife1

Question: has brexit worked out for the fisherman the way they thought it would? Is anyone openly happy about it?

99% of them are really struggling.

Interesting article in The Guardian this morning by Fintan O’Toole.

The government is using what is known as the Darvo strategy in attacking the NI protocol written by Johnson.

D - deny the flagrant breach of international law
A - attack the very thing you are purporting to defend - in this case the political and economic stability of NI
RVO - reverse victim and offender - blame others - in this case the EU - for the known consequences of your own choices.

Obviously the EU does not like the new proposals but the Red and Green lanes could work, it is more or less what has been happening for since 2021.
You are never going to stop smuggling entirely and I’m sure the Irish are discretely monitoring goods going south. Many goods have place of origin and traceable documents that can be verified.

That won’t satisfy all Unionists because the existence of red and green lanes imply a border.

Katie59

The fishermen were misled by the lies just like the rest of us, they believed that the UK would get preferential treatment over EU members - cherry picking.

It was never going to happen and didn’t

Some of us weren’t misled by those lies, though. But they were branded project fear.

This is just my opinion and not based on any provable facts whatsoever...

The constituency where my parents live, and where I grew up, bucked the trend in Scotland by voting to Leave. There is a large proportion of fishermen in that constituency. They have subsequently been sold down the river by the Government in the deal with Brussels. They've returned a Tory MP who has recently voted for Johnson to stay in post, and Douglas Ross is welcomed with open arms when he visits the local fish market.

There's nowt as queer as folk.

That won’t satisfy all Unionists because the existence of red and green lanes imply a border.

Are you getting Unionists and Nationalists mixed up, Katie59?

Unionists would be fine with a border. It's the Nationalists who wouldn't.

The EU have also stated that a green/red lane may work

MaizieD

^That won’t satisfy all Unionists because the existence of red and green lanes imply a border.^

Are you getting Unionists and Nationalists mixed up, Katie59?

Unionists would be fine with a border. It's the Nationalists who wouldn't.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/pan-unionist-legal-challenge-to-ni-protocol-listed-for-hearing-at-supreme-court-in-london-41757320.html

Maybe some Unionists are also Nationalists

growstuff
"It is a fact that those who voted to leave had, on average, lower educational qualifications and were older than those who voted to remain. If you want to see a fact as a criticism, that's your business. It's also a fact that there was dog whistle racism (and even blatant racism) amongst some of those who voted to leave."

FACTS aren’t always black-and-white. Data may support both sides of an argument. Have you heard of confirmation bias? We all tend to consider our own knowledge and opinions as better informed, more objective, and more effective as compared to those of others which makes it difficult to focus on refuting evidence over conforming evidence. If it helps you to believe that all people who supported Brexit are racist and poorly educated that is your business or perhaps you could take a look at some arguments and evidence that don’t support your preconceptions.

No one has said ‘all people’ . But surely it’s a fact that vote leave tapped into racism to win votes.

No, really Janet12. Time after time surveys and research have shown that people who voted for Brexit, on average, were less well educated than those who voted to Remain.

That's not the same as "everybody who voted for Brexit is racist and poorly educated". Perhaps you could take the time to consider that.

In the meantime, do you have any evidence that refutes the research I'm about to post?

www.researchgate.net/publication/334785287_Educational_attainment_and_the_Brexit_vote

www.statista.com/statistics/572613/eu-referendum-decision-by-highest-educational-attainment-uk/

www.statsguy.co.uk/brexit-voting-and-education/

^ If it helps you to believe that all people who supported Brexit are racist and poorly educated...^

That is not what growstuff said. Her words are in the excerpt from her post that you posted.

You have immediately put your own indignant spin on it by using the word 'all', which has a completely different meaning from 'on average'.

MayBee70

No one has said ‘all people’ . But surely it’s a fact that vote leave tapped into racism to win votes.

Not specifically racist, certainly xenophobic.

Janet12

growstuff
"It is a fact that those who voted to leave had, on average, lower educational qualifications and were older than those who voted to remain. If you want to see a fact as a criticism, that's your business. It's also a fact that there was dog whistle racism (and even blatant racism) amongst some of those who voted to leave."

FACTS aren’t always black-and-white. Data may support both sides of an argument. Have you heard of confirmation bias? We all tend to consider our own knowledge and opinions as better informed, more objective, and more effective as compared to those of others which makes it difficult to focus on refuting evidence over conforming evidence. If it helps you to believe that all people who supported Brexit are racist and poorly educated that is your business or perhaps you could take a look at some arguments and evidence that don’t support your preconceptions.

It doesn't help me to do anything!

Maybe you would care to produce some data or other evidence which doesn't support the facts I've stated.

If you can, I'm happy to be corrected. However, I have never once seen any evidence that there wasn't a correlation between educational qualifications and the way people voted. Incidentally, I don't believe I ever wrote anything about being racist.

Grwostuff

This is an article by the BBC that may help.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

And? So what. Do you think people with less education shouldnt vote. What purpose do you think this serves.

Galaxy

And? So what. Do you think people with less education shouldnt vote. What purpose do you think this serves.

It shows me that people who were better educated might on average be considered to be better at understanding complex situations. Its not an either/or of course, some people who consider themselves not to be educated, are very clever people and can work out situations carefully. Some educated people don't have the sense they were born with.

But generally, the higher the level of education a person has, the more likely they are to be able to solve complex problems involving international relations, economics, geopolitics and so on. The more likely they are to understand that there is a link between them voting for Brexit and the potential collapse of the situation in Northern Ireland.

We often hear that they knew what they were voting for, but then we see headlines about how the Europeans are being given preferential treatment at passport queues in airports.

So, it should help us to understand that some decisions are too big to be left to the populace. If the country wanted out of the EU, so be it. If they want out but think that we can still have all the benefits of the club, they are not thinking this through. It may offend some people to hear it, but more educated people are more likely to work that out. That's why we get educated.

Galaxy

And? So what. Do you think people with less education shouldnt vote. What purpose do you think this serves.

No, I don't think that at all. However, it's been shown many times to be true. I was responding to the poster who denied it. How people respond to facts is up to them, but I don't think hiding facts is a sign of a healthy society.

But education doesn't seem to be particularly useful when it comes to political strategy does it. Otherwise it might dawn on people that trumpeting the message about lack of education is about as counter productive as it's possible to be. Keep doing it though and then look around in surprise when Johnson is voted in again.
There is a debate to be had about the utility of referendums absolutely, but those decisions can be made in a different way via the democratic process.

FWIW I think the situation is more complex than suggested by volver. The article posted by Jackiest gives some of the reasons those with lower educational qualifications were more likely to vote to leave.

Age was also a big factor and that's linked with educational qualifications because older people are less likely to have had the opportunities to gain higher level qualifications.

I find it particularly galling when political parties take this stance and I am afraid the Lib dems and at times Labour have been guilty of this. What happens on internet forums is probably irrelevant but if political parties do it its catastrophic.

It was also an absolute failure (over years) of the 'remain' position being established and 'sold' to the electorate. Easy to be wise in hindsight but very intelligent people allowed a narrative to go unchallenged and didnt provide an alternative positive message until it was way to late.

Too late.

Galaxy

But education doesn't seem to be particularly useful when it comes to political strategy does it. Otherwise it might dawn on people that trumpeting the message about lack of education is about as counter productive as it's possible to be. Keep doing it though and then look around in surprise when Johnson is voted in again.
There is a debate to be had about the utility of referendums absolutely, but those decisions can be made in a different way via the democratic process.

I'm not trumpeting any message, but it's a fact and you can't change that. Maybe we should be looking at why the tendency to vote leave increased with age. From memory, I think the tipping point was about 45 years.

As far as educational qualifications are concerned, it's likely that those with lower qualifications do the kind of jobs which are most affected by an influx of immigrants who might be more highly skilled, but are willing to work for lower wages. Moreover, they possibly live in the kind of housing where there's pressure from immigrants looking for low cost housing. It's also likely that they feel they have no control over national politics, never mind pan-European politics.

There are issues which should have been addressed long before anybody came up with the idea of a referendum. Brexit hasn't solved any of them - and is unlikely to.

Galaxy

But education doesn't seem to be particularly useful when it comes to political strategy does it. Otherwise it might dawn on people that trumpeting the message about lack of education is about as counter productive as it's possible to be. Keep doing it though and then look around in surprise when Johnson is voted in again.
There is a debate to be had about the utility of referendums absolutely, but those decisions can be made in a different way via the democratic process.

Being part of the largest trading bloc in the world, which has led to peace in Europe for 80 years, and which countries like Ukraine and Moldova are desperate to join, and maintaining cordial relations with our nearest neighbours, isn't political strategy. Not breaking that link irreversibly isn't political strategy. It's common sense.