Speaking the truth about brexit

Why?

As opposed to people posting the facts and then others making up stories about them?

Making up stories about posters is not my style.

What I’ve never understood is why national newspapers are allowed to print blatant lies,( usually on their front pages) which are then looked on as gospel by large numbers of the electorate.

GrannyGravy13

Making up stories about posters is not my style.

Nobody here, but nobody has said anything about limiting the franchise to people with a higher level of educational qualifications. Whether you want to hear it or not, a person's level of educational attainment had a big influence on whether they voted for Brexit or not. It’s a complex argument. Growstuff commented that its probably more complicated that I wrote, and she’s probably right, but now we’re arguing about one determinant of voting behaviour in the Brexit referendum and excluding all the others, because some posters are trying to pretend that a proven fact means some of us are trying to limit the franchise. For pretend you can read “making up stories”.

My post of 15.45 yesterday was general thinking not directed at any particular poster, I stand by my post.

Since I have been on GN (4 years) there have been multiple posts referring to uneducated voters along with maybe there should be a level of education in order to vote on various N & P threads.

As for the elites are out to get them who are the so called elites and them volver ?

On this thread, nobody at all has suggested that people should have a certain level of education before they are allowed to vote. So I think I'm quite justified in pointing out that you are ascribing those beliefs to people who have never said such a thing.

volver

On this thread, nobody at all has suggested that people should have a certain level of education before they are allowed to vote. So I think I'm quite justified in pointing out that you are ascribing those beliefs to people who have never said such a thing.

It wasn’t all about you volver

GrannyGravy13

volver

On this thread, nobody at all has suggested that people should have a certain level of education before they are allowed to vote. So I think I'm quite justified in pointing out that you are ascribing those beliefs to people who have never said such a thing.

It wasn’t all about you volver

I asked who you were talking to. You said: To any poster/s who continually post regarding the correlation between education and voting. I'd just been posting about the proven correlation between education and voting (in a particular circumstance.)

??

Galaxy

I thought about it before I voted to remain and asked myself whether leaving would solve any of that and decided it wouldn't. I cringed when I heard some of the "Remainer" arguments and wanted to shout out "Listen to these people! Just listen and do something about the grievances before they commit hari-kari".

I think some - many? - Remainers (of which I am one) completely failed, and still fail, to understand that because of our very unequal society, the benefits of our membership of the EU were not equal to all.

I don't know how to put this diplomatically, without causing offence to someone, but I'll try.

The well-heeled City worker living in leafy Hampstead Heath, London, stopping on his way back from work at an 'artisanal' late-opening Polish deli in Heath Street to pick up something interesting for supper is not living in the same environment as the resident of, say, Boston in Lincolnshire (or anywhere along the east coast) where low-paying, unskilled jobs contribute to its decline, and which has seen the largest influx of East Europeans.

Hampstead has always been cosmopolitan to some extent, even as far back as the late 50s, early 60s. To that extent it hasn't changed much - there's just more choice of 'foreign' delicacies and culture. Boston, on the other hand, changed virtually overnight. There was little time to adapt, and little opportunity to build up the infrastructure to cope with the change and the numbers. And, rightly or wrongly, people are tribal to a large extent, the familiarity of your surroundings and people are part of a community's sense of security and well-being (having travelled extensively in Eastern Europe, I know this sense of identify is not particular to us only).

It's all too easy and predictable to dismiss Brexiters as racist / uneducated, etc, etc... but did Remainers stop to think about this or even want to address the inequality - an inequality imposed largely by our own government(s). Since Thatcher, the decline of the east Midlands and parts of the North after de-industrialisation have had a savage effect on people's lives. Of course, some areas benefited from regional funding from the EU - but did people know this? And why wasn't there sufficient funding implemented by our own government?

Some Brexit voters voted for it to "stick it to Cameron" - misplaced ire, but they were aware that he lived in a different world to them and seemed not to care about their fate - other than to suggest they call him 'Dave'.

Why didn't Remainers address these issues - and challenge government and its ideology which has resulted in social mobility almost grinding to a halt? None of this is the fault of East Europeans, or any other Europeans, nor the EU... our problems are largely home-grown (something Boris Johnson himself once acknowledged).

The Leave campaign was built on lies and deceit, but the Remain campaign was totally lacklustre, somewhat elitist, and didn't, as far as I can see, once get to the heart of the issue because it failed to acknowledge the real - as you call them - grievances of the Brexit 'man in the street'.

The Referendum came at the wrong time and was instituted for the wrong reasons - looking at you, David Cameron. We needed a national debate first on the decades of stagnation of the 'left-behind' living in left-behind areas... whose only Champion was Ian Duncan-Smith who cried crocodile tears at what his own government's policies had forced on them, and who's answer was, basically, just "get back to work" - presumably in those low-skilled, low-paid jobs which were, somehow, going to turn their lives around.

We failed.

Yes, I couldnt agree more. Much more articulate than my moaning!.
Its somehow similar to the left of the labour party (most of whom are middle class to their core) being surprised when the working class wont embrace their vision for them.

I’m a Remainer Dickens but I’m not offended. I’ve never been to Hampstead and there are no artisanal bakeries where I live. For most of my working life I worked in Scottish city that routinely comes near the bottom of the list of “well off” cities. It predominantly voted Remain, incidentally. The place where I worked employed people from the city and people from all over the EU. There are a lot of EU nationals in the city – well there were, many of them have left now.

DM left school 70 years ago and doesn’t have a qualification to her name. There has been a huge influx of people from the EU into the area she lives in, doing work that needs doing in an industry that is (was) thriving. It’s probably very like Lincolnshire, but with different industries. We went there recently. The only restaurants we could find was a chip shop and a hotel bar. DM and most people who lived there, voted Remain.

People voted to Remain because they could work out which side our bread was buttered. The Remain campaign was lacklustre but I think that's because nobody could ever imagine that anybody would vote to make themselves worse off. Its completely unfair to suggest that the Remainers should have done something about the people who thought they were badly off because of the EU. I’ve seen this many times on here – ah, they were so badly done by, we should have helped them. That’s not the Remainers job that’s the Governments job and they didn’t do it.

We didn’t fail at all. Cameron failed when he set this daft idea in motion. The governments of the last 40 years have failed by telling people that all their problems were because of the EU then not expecting them to vote against it. Saying “we failed” is even worse than saying that the less well educated voted for Brexit. Its patronising and its paternalistic. The Government failed, over and over again.

Well, I fear we all failed, a bit, in our own ways. My entire family voted Remain. We have chefs, tilers, plumbers, teachers, social workers, nurses, health visitors, senior managers (private and public), architects, civil engineers, entrepreneurs and so on. None of us aged w0’s - 60’s could see any positives in leaving the EU. Nothing has happened to change those views.
One of the enduring sadnesses for me, is the knowledge that some in our former wealthy mill town, king cotton, voted Leave in the belief that would stop immigrants from Pakistan. No understanding or acceptance about why our town and others like it have a thriving population of people with roots in Pakistan
We don’t teach our history well. Our population needs to be better educated, better informed.

Good post Dickens

volver

Saying “we failed” is even worse than saying that the less well educated voted for Brexit. Its patronising and its paternalistic. The Government failed, over and over again.

Various studies have indicated that the less well educated did vote for Brexit, some mixing up domestic politics with those of the EU. Which of course doesn't mean that all Brexit voters are uneducated, I've debated with very intelligent Leavers who had clear reasons for wanting us to Brexit. And some of them knew more about how the EU functions than I do - because they were directly affected.

But if the gains and the prosperity mainly go to the affluent and the skilled, then many of the rest will be left behind, and they will challenge the whole notion of our membership.

Yes, it's the government's job to help the 'left behind' - and they clearly had no intention of doing it. And we knew that.

One thing I should have mentioned about where I worked. The building had a big plaque in reception saying something like "Built with EU Funding". Those who worked there, from the MD to the cleaning ladies, knew they had the EU to thank for their workplace.

I seem to give people more credit than others do. People I know could see that their lives were improved by the EU and didn't want out. They weren't thinking that they'd been left behind while the cognoscenti reaped the rewards of Polish delis. Not even the cleaning ladies working 15 hours a day at 3 jobs thought that.

Maybe all those intelligent people who thought leaving was a good idea had their own reasons for thinking that. Maybe they knew the functions and so on. But they clearly didn't have much in the way of foresight or critical thinking skills.

They were told it would be a disaster, and it is.

Dinahmo

Growstuff I think that you are digging yourself a big hole. My OH's grandfather was an Alderman and Sherriff of Nottingham in the 50s. His father was coal miner and when a boy he picked potatoes in the fields during holidays etc.

As an adult he started a co-operative soft drinks factory and was involved in workers' education.

He could not have become Sherrif if he was not an educated person. There will be many GNers who will have similar stories (although maybe not Sherrifs of Nottingham)

No, I haven't been digging a hole for anyone. I have been stating a fact. Anecdotes are not the same as looking at a whole population and averages and trends, as volver has explained.

volver

One thing I should have mentioned about where I worked. The building had a big plaque in reception saying something like "Built with EU Funding". Those who worked there, from the MD to the cleaning ladies, knew they had the EU to thank for their workplace.

I seem to give people more credit than others do. People I know could see that their lives were improved by the EU and didn't want out. They weren't thinking that they'd been left behind while the cognoscenti reaped the rewards of Polish delis. Not even the cleaning ladies working 15 hours a day at 3 jobs thought that.

Maybe all those intelligent people who thought leaving was a good idea had their own reasons for thinking that. Maybe they knew the functions and so on. But they clearly didn't have much in the way of foresight or critical thinking skills.

They were told it would be a disaster, and it is.

Yes volver, I've seen similar plaques indicating EU funding. It's quite possible some of the cleaning ladies (no cleaning men?) thought - as some Brexiters did - that we should have control of our own money, decide where it's spent, and not rely on "hand-outs" from the EU who were just giving us back some of our "own" money. That's the response I got from more than one Brexiter when talking about regional development and funding. Of course, it's not impossible that the MD thought along similar lines, who knows...

You say it's not the Remainers' job to champion / fight for / 'deal with', the plight of the dispossessed / 'left-behinds' - it's the government's. It's also the job of government to help refugees / immigrants, the disabled, the homeless, the mentally ill, etc. The dire response of government(s) to effectively solve the problems and help those in these groups has resulted in us - society - forming pressure groups, charities etc, to advocate on their behalf. So why not include those at the bottom of the pile (so to speak)? There's been enough publicity over the decades highlighting the plight of some of the most impoverished living in industrial wastelands - TV programmes ("Auf Wiedersehen, Pet" back in the 80s, as a starter), and so many editorials in the media, over the decades.

Remainers I know are prepared to tackle successive Tory government's dismal responses to the problems they've largely created themselves for the above demographics - why exclude those whose lives have been diminished (to put it mildly) similarly?

Personally, I credit everyone with a level of intelligence, either 'native' or academic - or both, and don't start from the premise that a Brexiter is automatically an uneducated know-nothing. Clearly though, some of the reasons given - and they've sometimes been given 'on-air' - for abandoning our membership are quite obviously based on inaccurate information; lies from vested-interest bodies / groups - not to mention the government itself.

The facts, the figures, are all there for anyone to research. So why - as you pointed out - would anyone vote to make themselves worse off?

Why indeed? But they did. As someone semi-retired (and working for myself) pre-Referendum, I had all the time in the world to research the required information, not that I had any intention of voting other than Remain, but needed to understand the functioning of the EU in detail if I was to parlez with others. I had the luxury of time that a lot of people - especially those working long hours - just don't have. This doesn't signify anything much other than that Remainers - supposedly knowledgeably armed with all the facts and figures relating to the EU, did a pretty poor job trying to convince the frazzled, overworked (probably under-paid) of the EU benefits, to them and the wider community. Some exploited, overworked, underpaid Brexiters had genuine grievances - but laid them at the wrong door - and what did many Remainers do, other than (often) sneeringly put them down? De-industrialisation was a huge economic and cultural change after Thatcher; knowledge and skills have been diminished - destroyed - and the 'victims' have been side-lined ever since. Why was this demographic not as important as the others I've highlighted above?

I was told off for using the head banging emoji before, so I won't. Are people intentionally misunderstanding what I write?

And yes they were all cleaning ladies. The MD was a woman too, just in case anyone has any images of that person in their minds. And I know how she voted.

volver

I was told off for using the head banging emoji before, so I won't. Are people intentionally misunderstanding what I write?

And yes they were all cleaning ladies. The MD was a woman too, just in case anyone has any images of that person in their minds. And I know how she voted.

I was told off for using the head banging emoji before, so I won't.

... "told off"? Well not by me - feel free!

Stella Creasy MP urges the Labour Party to tell the truth about brexit

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/19/labour-must-break-partys-silence-on-brexit-says-stella-creasy

The EU funded many buildings and services for disadvantaged areas in the UK; I worked for some years at a day centre for homeless people, on an EU project helping homeless people to improve their literacy and numeracy. The EU did this where there was need and our own government, spending our own taxes, hadn't bothered to do anything to help. As a Remainer, I absolutely support ad campaign for help for those areas of the Uk trashed by Thatcher. However, most of the Leave voters I know personally are either employed people, many of whom have told me they since regretted their vote, or members of the gammon tendency, i.e. comfortably-off retired people deluded by certain newspapers.

varian

Stella Creasy MP urges the Labour Party to tell the truth about brexit

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/19/labour-must-break-partys-silence-on-brexit-says-stella-creasy

What stood out - to me - in the article was pointing out the "growing frustration among many Labour MPs and activists about Keir Starmer's refusal to address in any detail the Brexit issue..." As a previous enthusiast for a second referendum I find it almost breathtakingly hypocritical of him to say, as he did in February, 'There Is No Case For Rejoining The European Union' and he now wants to focus on 'taking advantage of the opportunities' of Brexit

He's lost my respect - not because I think we're anywhere near re-joining the EU (I think that is decades away - if it ever happens at all) - but because he won't nail his true colour to the mast, attempting to court popularity at the expense of honesty. How can he possibly go from being an ardent Remainer to the point of saying that ('There Is No Case For Rejoining The European Union")?

I've been highly critical of Boris Johnson for having once said that our problems in the UK are largely of our own making, and are not down to "Bwussels"... and has now turned his coat to blame everything on the EU. So I'm certainly going to condemn Starmer for doing basically the same thing... changing his allegiance for political gain (or personal gain, who knows).

There are odd moments when I despairingly think I wouldn't care what a politician / Prime Minister believed in... as long as he or she genuinely believed it and wasn't spouting glib mantras and populist nonsense for the sake of their own personal ambitions. At least with an honest politician / PM, you would know where you stood, even if you didn't agree with their ideology. As far as I'm concerned, Starmer is no better than Johnson in this respect.

Thanks for posting the link - I hadn't got around to reading the G.

The boss of Britain's biggest budget airline has contradicted a minister’s assertion that Brexit is not to blame for the airport and airline chaos.

Johan Lundgren, chief executive of EasyJet, said 8,000 job applications from European Union citizens have been rejected by his firm because candidates did not have permission to work in the UK.

Last week the aviation minister, Robert Courts, told MPs on the business select committee it was “not likely” that leaving the EU played a part in the chronic staff shortages afflicting aviation.
Mr Lundgren told The Independent: “The pool of people is smaller, it’s just maths.

“We have had to turn down a huge number of EU nationals because of Brexit. Pre-pandemic we would have turned down 2-2.5 per cent because of nationality issues,” Mr Lundgren said. “Now it’s 35-40 per cent.”

His comments came as Heathrow airport asked airlines flying from terminals 2 and 3 to cancel 10 per cent of their schedules on Monday due to mounting problems with baggage handling. The chaos began when a major system failure led to a build-up of a “baggage mountain” outside Terminal 2.

On Wednesday, Mr Courts was asked about the role of Brexit in the current turmoil – which is currently causing around 200 flight cancellations daily to, from and within the UK.

He said: “On the evidence we have, it looks as if Brexit has little if anything to do with it.”

The easyJet chief executive was speaking after announcing that easyJet’s summer schedule will shrink by 7 per cent in a bid to eliminate short-notice cancellations.

www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-flight-cancelled-easyjet-staff-b2104884.html

When the UK left the EU on January 31 2020, Boris Johnson hailed “the dawn of a new era”. More than two years later, the UK is depleted, disrespected and discredited. It is a cautionary tale; a nation adrift and bereft where every political principle has been sacrificed on the altar of Brexit expediency by a government trying to keep disingenuous promises made by people who never really understood what they were pledging. Or if they did, they had their fingers firmly crossed behind their backs.

Johnson has said he has got Brexit done. But six years after the referendum, the UK is on the brink of a bruising legal battle with Brussels, if not a full-blown trade war, while the economy is grinding to a halt as wages stagnate, prices spiral, farmers and fishers despair, and small businesses throw in the towel, defeated by reams of red tape.

The UK is still in thrall to a Brexit vision that was always unworkable in its hardest form and to a one-trick-pony prime minister, devoid of any policy other than saving his own skin and repeating the mantra that he got Brexit done.
By refusing to acknowledge the truth – on Brexit and much else – Johnson has impaled himself on his own lie. He cannot address the manifold problems that still plague the country because to admit to these problems would be to admit that Brexit is not done or working. And so the naked emperor must continue to stride through the crowds, pretending not to hear the shocked gasps and cries of “shame”.
www.theneweuropean.co.uk/after-six-years-its-clear-to-all-brexit-was-a-very-bad-idea/

varian Ryanair's Mike O'Leary has said something similar. There are ads in the local papers this week for airline staff vacancies.