First arrests under the New Police Act preventing freedom of speech

How would you know who might, though?

GrammyGrammy

I'm describing the past- hundreds of years ago and what people felt was appropriate. These things are not dealt with in these ways nowadays. Nonetheless they are still wrong behaviours.

You appear to be mourning a past when people who voiced an opinion at a time you consider inappropriate could be killed - "and rightly so" I believe you said?

A sentiment you've extended to a poster on here who used a phrase you consider blasphemous:

So would you for your blasphemous mouth. And quite right too

In short - you approve of violence - even death - being meeted out to anyone who doesn't abide by your code.

Fortunately for us the common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel were formally abolished in England and Wales in 2008.

You scare me far more than any individual making an ill-judged rant.

And Judgement Day is on its way

Proselytising too.

@25Avalon
When were you last at a Liverpool/Everton derby?
If an Everton fan in the Spion Kop at Anfield or a Liverpool fan at the Gwladys Street End at Goodison Park were to make comment 'dissing' the opposing team, he'd get a few mouthfuls of abuse, but that's all he'd get!
Perhaps you should make sure you know what you're talking about before spouting rubbish!
If a fan of either Merseyside team cannot get a ticket from their own club for a derby game, they will happily get one from the opposing club and mix with their 'oppos'!
My husband is a long term Everton Season Ticket Holder, an ex player is our son's Godfather (DM) and I have been to many matches. Maybe some football fans are yobs, but the rivalry between Everton and Liverpool is friendly. They may give one another a lot of 'verbal' but there has not been any violence between the fans for many, many years!
I'm not a scouser either, both my husband and I were raised in, and still live in Chester, but I can not ignore people who are not from the area uttering garbage about Everton or Liverpool fans!

Summerlove

Coco51

I think a man was arrested for heckling Prince Andrew. Freedom of Speech is vital, but there is a time and a place, but this was neither.

Freedom of speech does not have a time and a place.

If it did, it wouldnt be freedom of speech.

This is an all or nothing situation. Not an "Only if I think its appropriate" one.

Of course, freedom of speech has to be judged on time, place and action too. I can imagine a case where this would be appropriate; if it incited the crowed for example.

I do not think holding up a blank piece of paper is the same, but it seems the Police see that balance too.

I'm sure Mosely's Black Shirts, back before and during the war, thought they should be allowed "freedom of speech" too. Surely you would not allow extremists to incite racial hatred.

In the middle, freedom of speech is easy to police. At the extremes it is another thing. Freedom of speech is not an absolute. It is limited by other people's freedoms - unless you live in a dictatorship.

I think he shouldn’t have been arrested-and neither should those who might well have shouted him down.
I have seen the silencing by violence of people exercising their right to speak the truth being approved of, because the freedom of speech wasn’t saying what they wanted.
Arrest is wrong, but not as dangerous as that.
I have seen the criticism of people using their freedom of speech to say they want to go and pay their respects by walking past the late Queen’s coffin, even 7 times.
If we are to have freedom of speech, then as some have already said, you cannot pick and choose what is said just to suit you.

I agree with you Juggernaut. A few years ago, I was with a Liverpool fan amongst Everton supporters. We kept quiet until Liverpool scored, when we couldn't help but cheer. We got a few comments and some boos, but that was all and we watched the rest of the game with no problem.

kjmpde

I have no issue with people not wanting the monarchy and protesting when Charles is going to the ceremony to be proclaimed King. What I think is inappropriate is the placards during the funeral procession. Protests all have the time and place . I think it may be why people are being arrested - to save a backlash which could become violent .

But should people be charged with behaviour which might make others angry? Which laws did these people actually break?

GrannyGravy13

With free speech comes responsibility, it does not give one the right to insult or offend others.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Does that include all the people who have insulted and offended Harry and Meghan?

If a fan of either Merseyside team cannot get a ticket from their own club for a derby game, they will happily get one from the opposing club and mix with their 'oppos'!

As a scouser I can say this is untrue. Recently an Everton fan did make it there and it hit the news and local paper because it was so rare. And Liverpool fans were rather annoyed to say the least

extra.ie/2020/01/06/sport/soccernews/heres-why-this-everton-fan-was-welcomed-into-the-kop-for-merseyside-derby

Well said Songstress60. Others may have mentioned the pandemic, if so, I apologise. I haven't read all comments... too depressing. But civil liberties have been slowly and quietly eroded for a long time. However, the so-called pandemic and the removal of people's freedom and liberty due to lockdowns has speeded up the process. Hopefully, people are starting to wake up as to what we have lost in the last 2 years. The future of personal liberty and freedom of speech is domed unless we wake up.

I am so tired of 'dont say that or you might get hurt'. Do people understand how threatening they sound.

Well said, Amalegra. You have put that so succinctly. I agree with you wholehearted. I find it sad and strange that voicing these very comments during the last couple of years would have caused a great outcry. People still do not accept the damage that has been done to our democracy. I despair for the country our children and grandchildren are going to inherit. When I said this to someone about grandchildren they said 'well they won't know any different'. So, everything our parents and the Queens generation fought for is worth nothing. It makes me feel the older generation have had the hard-fought freedoms so the next generation can go run!

Breach of the Peace as a minor offence has been around for a long time - nothing to do with any new laws. I would imagine these people were arrested or removed for their own protection - a memorial parade for a much loved monarch is not the time to be protesting and its not likely to go down well with a crowd who have come to pay their respects to the Queen. Can people not have a little grace and leave it until next Tuesday onwards to start banging on about republics and unelected monarchs? We have no absolute right of free speech and never have had - its a fantasy.

growstuff

kjmpde

I have no issue with people not wanting the monarchy and protesting when Charles is going to the ceremony to be proclaimed King. What I think is inappropriate is the placards during the funeral procession. Protests all have the time and place . I think it may be why people are being arrested - to save a backlash which could become violent .

But should people be charged with behaviour which might make others angry? Which laws did these people actually break?

But should people be charged with behaviour which might make others angry?

Good point growstuff. In fact, a very good point because, well, don't most of us get angry with those who demonstrate their opinion if it opposes our own?

During the roll-out of the vaccination programme there were many demonstrations in various parts of the country (also in mainland Europe) opposing it. I think quite a few people were angered by some of the claims that were made, I was, but at the same time recognised that these people had the right to voice their concerns regardless of how outrageous I thought they were. They crossed the line when they physically tried to prevent medical staff going into a hospital. Although there are some who would say that was justified but I think not - when you start laying your hands on another person IMO it then becomes assault.

As for the man who shouted abuse at Andrew - was he right or wrong, was it the wrong time? We can argue all night but probably in the end will judge him by what we ourselves would or would not have done. I would not have done it. Partly because Andrew is not a convicted criminal and partly out of consideration for the remainder of the family who are, because of tradition, being forced to obey the rituals of grieving in public and, in spite of being a republican, I cannot think of anything worse than having the eyes of the nation watching your every move when you are undertaking what I feel is a very private and personal ritual. Others of course, will disagree.

These discussions make me think of a verse from The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about; but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went.

In that case Juggernaut why do the police make sure to keep opposing fans away from each other? They certainly do in Bristol. It’s not the average fan but the dyed in the wool who are proprietary about their special areas. I wouldn’t fancy my chances wearing an opposing scarf in such areas.

25Avalon

In that case Juggernaut why do the police make sure to keep opposing fans away from each other? They certainly do in Bristol. It’s not the average fan but the dyed in the wool who are proprietary about their special areas. I wouldn’t fancy my chances wearing an opposing scarf in such areas.

???

The OP says the arrests where under the New Police Act preventing freedom of speech By this I assume WWM means the contentious new act passed in Parliament.

These people seem to have been arrested under the Breach of the Peace (Scotland) Act. Is this the same as the new English one? Of course, this is so far only alleged. No one has been found guilty so anything can yet happen.

DaisyAnne

Summerlove

Coco51

I think a man was arrested for heckling Prince Andrew. Freedom of Speech is vital, but there is a time and a place, but this was neither.

Freedom of speech does not have a time and a place.

If it did, it wouldnt be freedom of speech.

This is an all or nothing situation. Not an "Only if I think its appropriate" one.

Of course, freedom of speech has to be judged on time, place and action too. I can imagine a case where this would be appropriate; if it incited the crowed for example.

I do not think holding up a blank piece of paper is the same, but it seems the Police see that balance too.

I'm sure Mosely's Black Shirts, back before and during the war, thought they should be allowed "freedom of speech" too. Surely you would not allow extremists to incite racial hatred.

In the middle, freedom of speech is easy to police. At the extremes it is another thing. Freedom of speech is not an absolute. It is limited by other people's freedoms - unless you live in a dictatorship.

The interesting thing about Mosely of course is that his views were held and supported by many in the establishment who thought his views and his right to express them was fine. It was the actions and disgust of working class people and socialists which put a stop to his racist views. The police would happily have let him continue stirring up racial unrest.
It seems that the police continue to decide what views may be expressed and what may not and perhaps not unexpectedly they still support the establishment.

I was thinking about that as I typed it Glorianny. It makes the point either way, I think. In a democracy Mosely, et al should be arrested if they breach the peace, as they did, so deliberately. In a Dictatorship or a country with something less democratic than we expect, Mosely might well be protected. I would like to think his speech would not now be seen (except by those few who agree with his views) as free speech as in law it attacks other people's freedom's.

In these situations, the police arrest suspects, the law decides guilt or innocence.

Saetana

Breach of the Peace as a minor offence has been around for a long time - nothing to do with any new laws. I would imagine these people were arrested or removed for their own protection - a memorial parade for a much loved monarch is not the time to be protesting and its not likely to go down well with a crowd who have come to pay their respects to the Queen. Can people not have a little grace and leave it until next Tuesday onwards to start banging on about republics and unelected monarchs? We have no absolute right of free speech and never have had - its a fantasy.

In what way were the people breaching the peace? I admit I haven't read reports of what actually happened, so it's a genuine question. Were the people shouting out or assaulting others in the crowd? What were they actually doing?

@25Avalon,
Maybe in Bristol they would fight with opposing fans, but Liverpool and Everton fans are not kept apart.
They get on the same trains to travel together into Liverpool, get lifts in one another's cars, have a pint together in the pub before going to the match.
Admittedly, there are some who would never even enter the opposing team's ground, but that's their choice, and they all finish up missing derby matches at some point!
If you're going to pick football teams to vilify, why not choose those you know about, eg Bristol City and Cardiff City.
What people don't seem to be aware of is that Everton is a district of Liverpool, the grounds are less than one mile apart, and it's more than likely that next door neighbours will support differing teams.
When little Rhys Jones who was an Everton fan was murdered in 2007, LFC played the Everton anthem (the theme from Z Cars) at Anfield, followed by You'll Never Walk Alone, in his memory at the game against Toulouse on August 29th 2007.
There may be very many places in this country where opposing teams need to be kept apart, Liverpool, however, is not one of them!
It's getting a little tiring, having people who are totally ignorant of the facts, slating Liverpool!

It is usually minorities who suffer the most when freedom of speech is restricted. Trying to protect people by restricting speech usually achieves the opposite.

Arrest can also happen because the police wish to prevent a breach of the peace - in these cases I would imagine said breach would refer to members of the crowd who had come to see the Queen's memorial procession taking exception at whichever idiot had shown so little class as to choose that particular moment to make a protest. It was likely for their own protection more than anything else - most of these charges will likely be dropped quietly in time.

Keir Starmer says don’t ruin it for those who have queued up I.e respect others if you don’t respect the Queen. He is still in favour of free speech. Well said Sir Keir. I agree with you for once.

Juggernaut I was just trying to choose teams people have heard off. Perhaps Arsenal v Tottenham, but only in certain parts of the ground. It was meant to illustrate how we can’t always say whatever we want wherever we are.

It show