Eddie Izzard

Rosie51

VS not every comment on this thread is about you, there are other people in this world, some who chant the same mantra you love TWAW. I don't equate all TRAs with racists, but I have seen tweets that have said exactly what I posted, that if black women are considered women then it's the same for transwomen. No it isn't. Black women are women. If, as I assume, you haven't tweeted racial slurs then why would you think I was referring to you? I didn't imply anything about you. I do think your chant of TWAW is a lie because transwomen are male and women are female. Science, and eminent medics like Lord Robert Winston will back me on that.

I wonder are you planning to answer MargotLedbetter?

I did answer

I think

Anyway, it's not about me so obviously I shouldn't have an opinion at all then?

Which is odd because people keep asking me things

At least I'm not rude though

My goodness it moved on while I was typing. Thanks Doodledog for actually reading and understanding what I wrote rather than the hasty victim inference VS took.

VS I don’t think for one minute that Doodledog is rude at all.
I think that she is maybe suggesting that you are over invested in all of this.

Honestly, the rudeness gives me hope.

It's why I know it's a battle we will win

FannyCornforth

VS I don’t think for one minute that Doodledog is rude at all.
I think that she is maybe suggesting that you are over invested in all of this.

Sure, I'm in good company then because my time spent on this subject is definitely less than everyone else

I'm just here so the readers will see there is another way and the shenanigans clearly shown on these threads are not the right path.

I think there are ways forward to get everyone's needs and rights met but they won't be found in this type of discourse.

That's the truth

Okay, VS, I honestly wish you well.

VioletSky

Rosie51

VS not every comment on this thread is about you, there are other people in this world, some who chant the same mantra you love TWAW. I don't equate all TRAs with racists, but I have seen tweets that have said exactly what I posted, that if black women are considered women then it's the same for transwomen. No it isn't. Black women are women. If, as I assume, you haven't tweeted racial slurs then why would you think I was referring to you? I didn't imply anything about you. I do think your chant of TWAW is a lie because transwomen are male and women are female. Science, and eminent medics like Lord Robert Winston will back me on that.

I wonder are you planning to answer MargotLedbetter?

I did answer

I think

Anyway, it's not about me so obviously I shouldn't have an opinion at all then?

Which is odd because people keep asking me things

At least I'm not rude though

Is the rude gibe aimed at me or only Doodledog as the rest of that post seems to be to me?

I've looked back but can't find your answer to MargotLedbetter's question so I'll copy it here.

Define woman. Define trans woman. Explain why the two are the same.

It's very obviously a rhetorical question when the only acceptable answer is what is in someone's pants.

I believe the answer is deeper

Science has already found differences in genes as well as speculated that the brain can be washed with hormones that change the brain during pregnancy

I am no scientist but I believe there will be an answer one day.

Here is the bestbI can do.

When people were saying gay people were unnatural, linking them with pedophiles, saying they shouldn't be parents, sayingbthey werent wanted in toilets and changing areas. I went with my heart. I said that decent law abiding people should be able to live and love as they wish

I'm doing the same now

Is that good enough?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

VioletSky

I'm just here so the readers will see there is another way and the shenanigans clearly shown on these threads are not the right path.

I think there are ways forward to get everyone's needs and rights met but they won't be found in this type of discourse.

That's the truth

shenanigans
/ʃɪˈnanɪɡ(ə)nz/
Learn to pronounce
nounINFORMAL
plural noun: shenanigans; noun: shenanigan
secret or dishonest activity or manoeuvring.
"the chairman was accused of financial shenanigans"
silly or high-spirited behaviour; mischief.
Origin
mid 19th century: of unknown origin.
Translate shenanigans to
Use over time for: shenanigans

Well that's a nice accusation you've made there VS care to name the guilty party/parties?

Tell me how we reconcile the muslim woman who now can't use the women only pond on Hampstead Heath because 'him in charge' decided self ID transwomen may also use it, and they don't even have to shave their beard off. She has swum there since childhood and would dearly love to swim with her daughter but it's now mixed sex so she has to self-exclude in accordance with her faith. This despite there are two other ponds transwomen could use, the mens or the mixed.

Oh, all the usual TRA tropes on display here. You don't like an article that to everyone else is just telling the straightforward truth? Look for something else the author has written that is controversial and do the 'well, if you like this piece you're aligning yourself to fascists/ racists/ the far right/ football hooligans'. No. We'll take each piece on its own merit. Brendan O'Neill may be erratic but on this he's right. We don't have to agree 100% with everything a journalist or commentator writes before we're allowed to hold one piece of work up as a good thing. This is an old trick of the far left, the purity test, and it lost its power some time ago.

And accusations of rudeness. No, just because people hold a different opinion to you express it robustly doesn't mean they're being rude.

I see that VS's 'proof' turns out to be a combination of kindness and born in the wrong body. Every time I ask 'believers' to explain their belief I always hope they'll come up with something rational and convincing — and every time I'm disappointed.

I didn't jump to a conclusion doodledog

I was unsure so I asked

I think it is interesting that you accusse me of gaslighting

Especially when I am very honest as a victim of abuse and have told you its incredibly painful

Who is gaslighting here?

It's not me.

For the record VS a very dear friends uncle dressed as a women for over 75% of his life.

He was a gentle human in every respect, he knew he was a man and therefore he used male facilities.

No shouting, ranting or raving no insistence that his rights trumped females rights.

VS you have just demonstrated exactly why the T was latched on to LGB. The shame about the way homosexual and bisexual people were vilified runs deep through society. Equality has finally been reached between the sexualities, all may marry or not the person of their choice. All may have consensual sex with any adult of legal age and it's the same for all sexual orientations. Homosexual equality didn't impinge on anyone else, it didn't affect how any of us go about our daily lives. Not one of my rights as a woman was diminished by homosexuals being treated the same as me. Trans rights are a whole different matter. When a transwoman enters my single sex female area it is no longer single sex. If a lesbian or bisexual woman enters it remains single sex. There is no compromise that enables the male to enter my protected space and it remain protected.

The onus isn't on me to prove anything I'm afraid

I believe in the equality act and I'm mostly happy as things stand..

Apart from the areas I agree the equality act is not being interpreted correctly like sports

But the amount of issues there are that I do agree on are irrelevant when people just want someone to vent their anger at and the pickings are slim because I am one of the very few who will stand up against shenanigans

It's just that many people think the GC argument is one that doesn't need addressing as it will implode on its own

Sensible people

Oh dear

Laters x

Trans Women Are Ttranswomen and that’s the absolute truth about TIM.
Nothing to do with chemical or surgical operations. With bits, without bits, lowered testosterone or whatever, they’re still male. Until they can change their birth chromosomes they remain male.
Hiding behind the corrupted meaning of the word women instead of using female is just another way of trying make people believe a lie.

Ok, so if scientists have found differences in genes, how does that mean that someone is in the wrong body? Are they saying that there are genes that make people male and female, and these are separate from gametes? So someone could be male physically but female - what? Psychologically? Emotionally? how does that work? What is the 'essence' that makes someone male or female 'in their heads'? Is it a manufactured thing, based on culture or historical age, or is it a biological thing, in which case, how does it manifest?

And why is there such an outbreak of people feeling they are 'in the wrong body'?

The gay analogy doesn't work for me, as that is about sexuality not so-called 'gender'. In fact, Stonewall claims that homosexuality is wrong, and instead there is same-gender attraction, (which conveniently means that lesbians are transphobic if they reject sexual advances from transwomen). I resent the implication that people who don't buy into the trans agenda are likely to be homophobic. I am most definitely not homophobic - I just don't see a link between being gay and being trans (beyond the possibility that a lot of children being encouraged to see themselves as trans are actually in denial about being gay).

Of course I (and based on posts on here, I think I can say many others who argue against the trans agenda) want people to live and love as they wish (and laugh, to complete the trilogy!) Why wouldn't we? Who people love, and how they live their lives is not what any of this is about. It is about women's rights, and the protection and safeguarding of children (and sport and language, but let's not fight on to many fronts at once).

Lots of questions, sorry - but there are never answers to them, which is why I remain entirely unconvinced.

Brilliant post Doodledog

VioletSky

I didn't jump to a conclusion doodledog

I was unsure so I asked

I think it is interesting that you accusse me of gaslighting

Especially when I am very honest as a victim of abuse and have told you its incredibly painful

Who is gaslighting here?

It's not me.

You asked if a general comment was about you. That is my point. Did anyone else assume that it was about them?

I am very aware of gaslighting too - you don't have the monopoly on that. And I can see it in the victim-playing and passive aggression. I am not gaslighting by saying that - I am speaking my mind and telling you straight.

I think acceptance of who people want or need to be is a completely different matter than changes to laws and guidelines wrt language especially. The former should be a given and covered under discrimination law, that latter should always consider natal born females only. I don't feel that is radical.

The onus isn't on me to prove anything

Are you such a superior being then VS? Did you not demand earlier, that others have to prove it but feel that you are exempt from such requirements. How very Mimi.

Oh and the onus isn’t on me to prove anything since I have biological facts on my side.

Re your idea of equality, you’ve demonstrated in so many ways that you only believe in an equality that benefits trans, in particular TIM, now with the exception of TIM in female sport.
So you feel you can pick and choose your equality?
???

Doodledog is saying exactly what I would like to say but I am not as eloquent.

I’m not transphobic. My late cousin was trans and we had a good relationship.

Well if people genuinely don't remember all the issues I do agree need resolution

And if people genuinely think I'm an abusive person who uses abuse tactics in discussion

Then I really don't understand why my name comes up so very often or why I would be spoken too at all.

I'm just a wobbly teaching assistant with a ridiculous amount of children and cats who happens to believe trans people are deserving of kindness and respect and a place to have a wee.

If that makes me a terrible human then sure, I'm a terrible human

But at least I don't reciprocate the awfulness that comes my way and I wouldn't even if the numbers were on my side on these threads.

I believe there is a better way.

I hope one day you all see that.

I'm just a wobbly teaching assistant with a ridiculous amount of children and cats who happens to believe trans people are deserving of kindness and respect and a place to have a wee

we all believe that too VS

There is a better way and it doesn't including making things more dangerous for women or vulnerable people (trans included) It's best not to take things personal on Gransnet or other forums, sometimes it is impossible but I think we are all guilty of being swept along with emotion, whatever that emotion may be. As women we have more in common with one another than anything that may divide us