Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

Galaxy

If you want to look at figures for most serious violent crimes, Lathyruus I think they are available. My recollection is that 2 women a week are murdered by men and that in the last 8 years 1 transwoman has been murdered in the UK. I think the analysis showed that transwomen had a lower rate of murder than natal men but you would need to double check this. Obviously I understand that violent crime is not just about the most serious crimes but it a discussion that in my view has been highly irresponsible. I think it was channel 4 that did a fact check on the statistics.

What's the ratio of women to transwomen?

If you are talking about sexual abuse of children growstuff the figures are I think 99 % Male, 1 % female in terms of offenders.
The last figures I saw for violent sexual assault not on children were either 93% or 97% Male.

No, I'm not. What are you reading?

You gave figures comparing murders of trans people with those of women killed by men, but those figures are meaningless without the total number of transwomen and cis women.

Incidentally, I don't think your figures are correct.

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?
Because they believed it would be discriminatory.

It’s a no win situation at the moment.
There’s the nobody would know group
The asking for proof would be offensive to . . . group
Arguing against
-using the wrong pronouns, because that’s offensive to some trans
-asking for birth sex to be recorded on documents, because that’s offensive to some trans, whatever they look like or say they are.
-excluding males from female toilets because that’s offensive, or dangerous, or whatever to some trans
etc.
I’m waiting for a solution that would protect trans without removing protection from females that won’t immediately be jumped on as anti-trans.

Sorry I was referring to a previous post there about women sex offenders.
I think in terms of murder they worked out that a trans person ( I dont think they differentiated between transmen and transwomen which I would have thought might have been useful) had between a two hundred thousand and five hundred thousand chance of being murdered in comparison to a one in one hundred thousand chance for a man or maybe both sexes but werent trans. Obviously these figures are a nightmare to interpret for a variety of reasons. But we should be very careful about the messages we send particularly to young people with gender dysphoria

There are male and female skeletons and male and female chromosomes. There are also people who are born intersex. Then there are also those who identify with a sex that is not there biological sex, so have chosen to change their appearance with surgery or hormones. All of that is truth.

If the truth was put on medical records there would be no margin for error and make the Dr's jobs easier. In A and E when there is so much pressure, it could be easy for a mistake to be made if the truth is not obvious because it has been disguised by a name change and possibly surgery or hormones and also by dressing differently. They could be helping themselves and saving a life by putting the truth out there. In the case of the transman whose baby died, he could have saved his child's life if he had lived more truthfully and been open about his origins. Some may say it's his right not to and yes- but with every choice there are consequences.

I don't feel there is any need for people to be horrible to others. It's better if people just look at the facts in a non emotional way.

They are not my statistics. Rape crisis states that 98 % of sexual offences are committed by men. I wonder if this is the problem that people don't realise the offending rates.

I agree with all of that, OAU.

I am deeply uneasy about official records being altered retrospectively unless there has been an error, or in the case of things like official pardons being issues post-mortem. I don't mean only for transpeople, but for everyone.

Lathyrus

I did say a range of research and evidence.

I suppose I mean disinterested and factual.

That report you’ve given me seems to rely heavily on speculation of what might be happening and reporting in emotive language. That always causes me doubt.
And obviously with a predetermined agenda.

I wouldn’t discount what they say but I would need research and evidence from other more neutral sources before I gave it credence.

As I said the “less likely to commit abuse” can’t be validly researched at all because of past methods of recording crime.

I wonder would you apply the same considerations to their report on Racism? www.stophateuk.org/about-hate-crime/racism-in-the-uk/

Yes. I don’t take any report or research at face value without questioning who commissioned it, who carried it our, what where the criteria and methods, who does it advantage/disadvantage.

Not the Government, not stophateuk, not the Milk Marketing Board, if it still exists.

Follow the money
Follow the agenda
Even follow the need to win an argument regardless 😬

I'm just pondering to myself. If someone can have a whole new identity and erase their previous one what happens in cases of security clearance especially DV security clearance?

I'm just interested because it seems to me that as most of the authorised channels plainly exhibit tendencies towards the sort of discrimination hate crime stems from, it would be very difficult to collect any sort of figures from them. The police for example are known to be racist, misogynistic and transphobic, so it is highly likely that a lot of people will not report to them. So what you seem to be saying is that the personal experiences reported have no value because they haven't been processed properly. But surely even if you discount some of the reported incidents the increase is worrying?

There are male and female skeletons and male and female chromosomes. There are also people who are born intersex. Then there are also those who identify with a sex that is not there biological sex, so have chosen to change their appearance with surgery or hormones. All of that is truth.

It's not truth. It's all you know currently. Do you never expect anyone to discover more, or do you just think you know everything we will ever know?

Yes DaisyAnne
It's not truth. It's all you know currently. Do you never expect anyone to discover more, or do you just think you know everything we will ever know.
That’s so true about so many things.
In time to come we could have self healing bodies which will eliminate the harm from knife or bullet attacks.
Or medically approved mind-wipes which will eliminate PTSD.

Until that happens we protect people from what exists as ‘truth’ now.

Currently what we know about Boris Johnson is that he is a liar, and didnt seem to be able to manage many of the responsibilities of his role, any role to be fair, in the future he may be re elected and prevent world war 3. I reserve the right to comment on his current performance rather than an imaginary one.

Lathyrus

Yes. I don’t take any report or research at face value without questioning who commissioned it, who carried it our, what where the criteria and methods, who does it advantage/disadvantage.

Not the Government, not stophateuk, not the Milk Marketing Board, if it still exists.

Follow the money
Follow the agenda
Even follow the need to win an argument regardless 😬

I’m not discounting anybody’s personal experience.

You only have to read briefly their methods of triangulation though to see that they have conflated data and failed to differentiate n order to suit their agenda.

Collecting data on hate crime is incredibly difficult but, as we can see from these threads, what one person sees as protecting themselves and their family, another sees as a hate crime against themselves. If you take insistence on
being allowed women only swimming session as an example who is suffering the hate crime. The trans person with the obviously male body or the Muslim woman who is knowingly and deliberately prevented from using that facility.

I would strongly question their conflating Lesbian and Gay hate crime into one figure with trans since we know there has been tension between those groups and incidences of harassment on both sides.

I also very much object to them using the term cis to identify those people who have maintained the gender that is commonly identified with their sex. Numerous protests have been made about this term which is a label used by trans and is not acceptable to gender constant people.
Using it knowing that is a hate crime as much using as any other derogatory term and reveals the underlying bias of the organisation.

So no I don’t think think this is an unbiased report from disinterested parties. I think it is faulty in a number of other respects.

I would I include it with reservations, as part of a range of reports from varied sources, but do not believe it is valid as primary evidence.

Glorianny

I'm just interested because it seems to me that as most of the authorised channels plainly exhibit tendencies towards the sort of discrimination hate crime stems from, it would be very difficult to collect any sort of figures from them. The police for example are known to be racist, misogynistic and transphobic, so it is highly likely that a lot of people will not report to them. So what you seem to be saying is that the personal experiences reported have no value because they haven't been processed properly. But surely even if you discount some of the reported incidents the increase is worrying?

This should have been the quote at the top of that post

It's not truth. It's all you know currently. Do you never expect anyone to discover more, or do you just think you know everything we will ever know?
There might one day be a discovery that in 2017 or thereabouts there was a currently unexplained event that caused an exponential growth in the numbers of people discovering that their so-called 'gender' was wrong. Who knows? There are very many things that the future might bring, but we can't act on them until we find out what they are.

Meanwhile, we are being told that homosexuality is 'same-gender attraction' (with the attended difficulties for lesbians), that Violence Against Women And Girls is 'gender-based violence' (so figures for attacks on transwomen are mixed in with DV and other male on female violence, and nobody can dispute claims that transpeople are 'the most marginalised group in society'), that sportswomen are now competing in a 'gender class' instead of against other women, and so on. I'd rather deal with that now, along with all the other losses of rights, safety and dignity currently being imposed on women, and think about the future when it arrives.

DaisyAnne

^There are male and female skeletons and male and female chromosomes. There are also people who are born intersex. Then there are also those who identify with a sex that is not there biological sex, so have chosen to change their appearance with surgery or hormones. All of that is truth.^

It's not truth. It's all you know currently. Do you never expect anyone to discover more, or do you just think you know everything we will ever know?

If someone has discovered some new truth feel free to share it here.

I do prefer to stick to the facts.

The only difference I can anticipate there being to skeletons is in the case of a young child who identifies as trans being given Puberty Blockers. In that case it may be harder to identify a person's sex by their skeleton. Although I think it may be impossible to alter a person's basic chromosomes from their birth sex?

I don't see how puberty blockers or any other medical intervention could affect a skeleton being identified as male or female, as my understanding is that the dimensions of the pelvis can never be in dispute.

I agree with you Smileless when we are looking at competitive sport.

It is for the relevant sports governing bodies to make decisions about whether or not transwomen can realistically compete against other women. I don't think the sporst authorities have a problem with transmen.

I don't know but I think if a child takes puberty blockers and /or hormones from an early age then it might alter their skeleton? I have heard that a boy transitioning to a girl may not grow as tall but I don't know what happens to a girl's hips when she is transitioning to a boy.

I have always thought there were either male and female skeletons but perhaps the only difference to this could be when a child begins transitioning early so that maybe their skeleton doesn't develop as it would have? In googling this I read the sad story of David Reimer, forced to grow up as a girl- and now wish I didn't.

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?
Because they believed it would be discriminatory.
And the crimes were under the previous transwoman name of Katie Dolatowski so nothing would have shown up under his previous male name, unless there were also previous crimes of course.