Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

We really need to admit there are problems and seek ways to solve them rather than try to pretend they don’t exist. When the evidence of multiple problems is increasing day by day

Quite

Galaxy

I know lots of transwomen fleur. They would not dream of using single sex spaces. They respect womens boundaries.

To be honest, I am surprised here. Are you saying they use men's toilets, and do not encounter abuse there, or even violence and worse? The fact there are cubicles where they can sit to pee, is NOT the issue here.

In many places, as said, Unis and some work places, gender neutral toilets are available. In the vast majority of places, in rural areas, in pubs and most restaurants, etc, etc. They are NOT available. And even when there are such toilets, just the fact of using them points to those people and open them to abuse and possible violence.

Yes, we need to find solutions. But pretending that we cans just sign a petition, and jump on easy answers, which just put another group at risk, is not the way forwards. OK, some of you will say 'ah but they have chosen to be trans- so tough. Who cares if they are exposed to bullying or worse!'. Is that really the way?

We look at things from different angles. I totally get the other of a disabled woman, or an elderly person with dementia, who is truly concerned she may be subject to male violence or abuse when in care. Totally. And yet, I do believe that transwomen are probably less likely to abuse, or no more likely at least. There are some nasty people in care- some of them are women.

I would have never thought about it unless I had met some amazing transwomen in the recent past. 3 who have gone through full conversion, and totally live as women, 1 of whom you would never ever guess. And another for whom it was too late to do so, in her 60s, and decided not to go through hormonal and physical transformation. I talk to them and their daily encounters with bullying, verbal violence and more- and the fact they would never dare go into a man's toilet, for fear of being attacked, verbally or worse. One of them has been treatened with rape on multiple occasions, with such comments as 'I'll show you what's what and worse.' They opened my eyes, and heart, to their plight.

One of them is a carer and assistant nurse, and no-one knows she was born a male. Her name and papers register her as a woman, she totally looks like a woman, she is married to a man and is called Mrs- why should she have to tell people of her past history? Whom does that help?

Reading the article this person was 18 when he assaulted a child and had filmed children in toilets previously. The nature of the attack was strange. He was obviously someone who needed help, but was obviously very capable of lies and deceit. Would classifying him as male have helped? Well it would undoubtedly have kept him out the refuge, but then he would have been able to hide somewhere else. At least the refuge were able to have him arrested.

We should protect all people from bad, malevolent people- of any sex. And we should be protecting trans people too, because they are much more victims of violence and abuse than most.

There are laws already in place for people who have had gender reassignment surgery so that they aren't discriminated against in the workplace.

OK, some of you will say 'ah but they have chosen to be trans- so tough. Who cares if they are exposed to bullying or worse!'

Excuse me! To which 'some of us' are you referring with that comment? I haven't heard or seen anything on this thread (or any other for that matter) which suggests that anyone would say anything of the kind. Perhaps you could be more specific for avoidance of doubt?

It's in the 2010 equality act, you can read it on the gov.uk website

Using the correct description of his sex would also ensure that his victims arent made to doubt the reality of their experience. Something which I think is inflicting further abuse of them.

What you believe is neither here or there I am afraid FP, we dont base legislation on that. Men and women commit crimes at different rates and on the whole commit different types of crime.

Glorianny

Reading the article this person was 18 when he assaulted a child and had filmed children in toilets previously. The nature of the attack was strange. He was obviously someone who needed help, but was obviously very capable of lies and deceit. Would classifying him as male have helped? Well it would undoubtedly have kept him out the refuge, but then he would have been able to hide somewhere else. At least the refuge were able to have him arrested.

I think being able to totally change his identity so that checks could not be made was a factor in enabling him to enter the Refuge.

All places where vulnerable women and children are should be able to run valid checks on who has access to them.

In schools volunteers are advanced DSB checked. But if someone can opt to be legally given for a totally new identity it makes nonsense sense of the whole system.

Lathyrus

It wasn’t fake ID but a new ID as a transwoman. So impossible for the Refuge to run any check on her ID as a male offender.

Surely everyone can see this is one issue that has to be addressed.

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?

Or you know dont allow males in female spaces as permitted by law.

I suspect this is once again a question of the inadequacies of the system. Previous identities should be revealed to the DBS not the person doing the check.
The law requires that applicants disclose all previous names and addresses to the DBS so that they can process an application correctly, and return accurate results. The DBS have a process to allow applicants to disclose previous gender/name information to the DBS only. This information does not need to be revealed on the DBS application form or to a potential employer. This is known as the ‘Sensitive Applications Process
We must all know how lengthy DBS processes can be. Perhaps that's why she was able to stay in the refuge for so long.

Fleurpepper

We should protect all people from bad, malevolent people- of any sex. And we should be protecting trans people too, because they are much more victims of violence and abuse than most.

I’m sorry Fleur but I don’t know if that is true. I accept it is your concern but we don’t, to my knowledge, have the range of research or statistics to back that up.

Neither do we know if people identifying as trans are more or less likely to commit abuse. Any research into that at the=moment has been rendered invalid by recording crimes by trans persons as male or female crimes.

I really don’t think anyone has said anything like “who cares if they are exposed to bullying - or worse”.

All of this needs investigation and preventative actions put in place so that everyone can be treated fairly, so that everyone can live without fear.

It’s a worry to me that there is a resistance to this happening.

And because they didnt use the exemptions of the equality act. If the legal action to provide female only services (a law that already exists but hey ho refuges have always been hard fought for) succeeds then we can make progress.

growstuff

Lathyrus

It wasn’t fake ID but a new ID as a transwoman. So impossible for the Refuge to run any check on her ID as a male offender.

Surely everyone can see this is one issue that has to be addressed.

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?

Because they believed it would be discriminatory?

It’s why we need absolute clarification on these issues.

DBS checks only take a few days these days. I had one done at the beginning of this year.

This person was using a female name in 2018, when the first crime was committed (the case can be Googled) and she was put on the sex offender register, so it was a case of changing the name from one female name to another, presumably with the intention to defraud.

A violent, abusive woman could have done the same.

Lathyrus

growstuff

Lathyrus

It wasn’t fake ID but a new ID as a transwoman. So impossible for the Refuge to run any check on her ID as a male offender.

Surely everyone can see this is one issue that has to be addressed.

But they knew she was trans, so had changed her name. Why couldn't they have asked for the original name and run a check on that?

Because they believed it would be discriminatory?

It’s why we need absolute clarification on these issues.

Do you know that?

I don't know what checks are done when somebody goes to a refuge. It wasn't a case that the male name had been changed to a female one. A completely false name was being used.

It wasnt a female crime and its absolutely appallingly cruel to say that it was.

Lathyrus

Fleurpepper

We should protect all people from bad, malevolent people- of any sex. And we should be protecting trans people too, because they are much more victims of violence and abuse than most.

I’m sorry Fleur but I don’t know if that is true. I accept it is your concern but we don’t, to my knowledge, have the range of research or statistics to back that up.

Neither do we know if people identifying as trans are more or less likely to commit abuse. Any research into that at the=moment has been rendered invalid by recording crimes by trans persons as male or female crimes.

I really don’t think anyone has said anything like “who cares if they are exposed to bullying - or worse”.

All of this needs investigation and preventative actions put in place so that everyone can be treated fairly, so that everyone can live without fear.

It’s a worry to me that there is a resistance to this happening.

Actually we do know some figures. We know trans attacks are increasing. We know figures are probably much higher because transpeople often fail to report.
www.stophateuk.org/about-hate-crime/transgender-hate/

I did say a range of research and evidence.

I suppose I mean disinterested and factual.

That report you’ve given me seems to rely heavily on speculation of what might be happening and reporting in emotive language. That always causes me doubt.
And obviously with a predetermined agenda.

I wouldn’t discount what they say but I would need research and evidence from other more neutral sources before I gave it credence.

As I said the “less likely to commit abuse” can’t be validly researched at all because of past methods of recording crime.

If you want to look at figures for most serious violent crimes, Lathyruus I think they are available. My recollection is that 2 women a week are murdered by men and that in the last 8 years 1 transwoman has been murdered in the UK. I think the analysis showed that transwomen had a lower rate of murder than natal men but you would need to double check this. Obviously I understand that violent crime is not just about the most serious crimes but it a discussion that in my view has been highly irresponsible. I think it was channel 4 that did a fact check on the statistics.

As transwomen are a relatively very small number- you can't compare those figures. What is the %?

Galaxy

It wasnt a female crime and its absolutely appallingly cruel to say that it was.

I never suggested it was!

What I'm saying is that the refuge could have allowed in a violent female sex abuser (there are some!). For some reason which wasn't just to do with a name change due to transitioning, this person was able to use an alias and it wasn't picked up.

I think they based it on the percentage FP from what I remember. It's quite complex really because men are more likely to be victims of murder than women as well.