Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

Onward is expressing her thoughts about a friend who she's clearly very fond of GagaJo and her fears for their future health and well being.

Her views haven't been posted from the stance of a GC feminist, but from the point of view of a good and concerned friend.

🙄🙄🙄 Excuses.

No GagaJo not excuses just facts.

Rosie51 : 'Fleurpepper if your niece went through a male puberty then she most definitely does have a male skeleton, even if that is a 'petite' one. The angle of the pubic arch will be smaller than that of a female skeleton, it's just a fact of nature. Your nephew, before transition to your niece might well have been a very petite male, but would still have had the proportions within the male scale. You really shouldn't get so offended'

I am not offended at all. What I am saying, is that you would never guess, and that it really makes no difference. Why does it make a big difference, to you?

Smileless2012

No GagaJo not excuses just facts.

Stating that a friend is doing the wrong thing with their body is arrogant. No two ways about it.

No wonder she hasn't told him. Her lack of understanding of who he is on a very deep, personal level is shocking.

This weekend, I met 2 of my trans friends. We had a nice chat, and all the time I was thinking about comments on this thread, and how sad that those 2 lovely people are being talked about as here, as an 'automatic' male threat to the whole female population. So sad.

No, not a lack of understanding as if that were the case she'd have said so to her friend and, not shares what are IMO her understandable concerns on here.

You may not agree with her but shocking!!!

Neither your trans friends, your niece or any other trans is being or has been talked about on here as an "automatic male threat to the whole female population" Fleur.

While I appreciate your closeness too and fondness of your niece and trans friends, what you are consistently accusing other posters of doing, is not the case.

This is an interesting article about the problems sexing skeletons, the historical inaccuracies and the latest methods which now classify some as "indetermined "https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/skeletal-studies-show-sex-like-gender-exists-along-a-spectrum

www.discovermagazine.com/health/skeletal-studies-show-sex-like-gender-exists-along-a-spectrum

Fleurpepper

This weekend, I met 2 of my trans friends. We had a nice chat, and all the time I was thinking about comments on this thread, and how sad that those 2 lovely people are being talked about as here, as an 'automatic' male threat to the whole female population. So sad.

The people who are making them an automatic male threat are not posters on here, but are those TW who cause the trouble and the TRA who support them.
No one has ever, to my knowledge said on GN that they view all trans as a threat.

If you read any posts about trans issues carefully, the majority of posters on here don’t see all trans as a threat, but they do want something done to protect females and stop the damage to TW who you were meeting, who presumably don’t want either to broadcast the fact that they are TW, or to override female rights to safe spaces, treatment by females when requested, or opportunity to win in competitions without being faced by cheating males.

Are you really not understanding the numerous posts that have pointed out that your friends are not being discussed as an automatic threat.*FP*?

What people are saying is that as long as men are allowed into women's spaces, there is a threat to women. The vast majority of men know this and would not dream of imposing themselves - not because they are a threat, but because they know that many women would perceive them as such if they rock up in a changing room, or anywhere where women might be vulnerable. With self-id, anyone who says they are female can go anywhere, which includes those who are no threat at all, as well as those with nefarious intent. The fact that some transpeople can pass unnoticed does not mean that they have more right to be there than those with stubble and hairy hands.

Personally, I would make an exception for people who have shown a commitment to their trans status by surgically transitioning. I am aware that there are those who disagree, but FWIW, that is my opinion. I also understand the 'policing' issues, but as I keep saying, when the trans lobby comes up with a solution, I would be very willing to hear it.

Thank you for that last paragraph.

However ''The vast majority of men know this and would not dream of imposing themselves - not because they are a threat, but because they know that many women would perceive them as such if they rock up in a changing room, or anywhere where women might be vulnerable.''

they no longer consider themselves to be male, and have committed to full transition. The point is, 1 of them could go anywhere because she is 100% convincing as a female- and she does go into female places, because that is where she belongs, as far as she is concerned, and her friends and family. The other two do too, because they just would not be safe going into 'male' toilets and changing rooms. THEY would be at huge risk. Of course, there are gender neutral toilets in some places, but not in the vast majority. Going to Gender Neutral toilets, where available, could also make them targets of violence.

Right. I get all of that. But what people consider themselves to be and what they are are not necessarily the same thing. I also understand people not wanting to use male loos if they are clearly trans, but the difference is that I don't see that as a women's issue. It is for men or tranwomen to solve, and simply telling women to find a way around it or live with it is not remotely satisfactory.

A male-bodied person should not be in a women's space, as they are not women, whatever they perceive themselves to be.

Oh dear- but they are NOT male-bodied anymore- THAT is the point. Not male minded, not male hearted, not male souled

If you have been stabbed by someone with a knife, you would be afraid of someone that came into your space carrying a knife.

If you have been badly bitten by a dog as I have, I’m afraid I am afraid of all dogs that come to close into my space

If you have been attacked or threatened by someone using a penis, you are afraid of anyone with a penis that insists on coming into your space.

The dog, the knife carrier, the person with a penis may all have innocent intentions. You can’t tell. You only know that it might happen because it already has.

You would hope that those who want to live as women would be able to identify and understand this fear. It’s not about ‘automatic’ male threat. It’s about knowledge and experience of what does happen to females.

''If you have been attacked or threatened by someone using a penis, you are afraid of anyone with a penis that insists on coming into your space.''

they do NOT have a penis - please!

You are asking them to take a huge risk of being verbally, or physically attacked, raped even- but thos who do have one! And are hell bent on making sure they know!

Fleurpepper

Oh dear- but they are NOT male-bodied anymore- THAT is the point. Not male minded, not male hearted, not male souled

In that case Fleur, if they are not male bodied much of the=fear would be removed.

But many trans still retain their male bodies. Can you understand why females might be fearful of male bodied people that insist on access to female spaces?

Fleurpepper

Oh dear- but they are NOT male-bodied anymore- THAT is the point. Not male minded, not male hearted, not male souled

I thought your niece had transitioned surgically but your friends have not?

I'f that's wrong, the fact still remains - IMO surgically transitioned transwomen should be allowed to use the Ladies, but not this with an intact penis.

Fleurpepper

''If you have been attacked or threatened by someone using a penis, you are afraid of anyone with a penis that insists on coming into your space.''

they do NOT have a penis - please!

You are asking them to take a huge risk of being verbally, or physically attacked, raped even- but thos who do have one! And are hell bent on making sure they know!

Do you mean toilets and changing rooms? Personally I agree with Doodledog that I would not object to those who have fully transitioned being in female spaces. I can see that male spaces would be totally inappropriate for them.

Can you see why females feel unsafe when those who have fully male bodies are insisting on access to female safe spaces?

Also, as women we train ourselves to be aware of danger. We do it every time we walk down a dark street, or get into a taxi. Women meeting men for the first time on blind dates are advised to go somewhere well-populated, to have a codeword or a number to call, and so on. Children are taught to go to women not to men if they feel they are in danger. Not because all men are a threat, but because more men are likely to be a threat than are women. That's how Myra Hyndley lured the children to their deaths.

Telling women and girls that when they see a man in the Ladies they now have to over-ride the instincts they have built up to protect themselves is, IMO, wrong.

Going to Gender Neutral toilets, where available, could also make them targets of violence. Gender neutral toilets aren't designated for transpeople, they're for anyone male or female to use, so why would that make your friends more at risk than anyone else using them? Plenty on these threads have said they have no problem with them and are happy to use them. Personally I'm happier with single sex toilets, and for some people their religious beliefs make it a must.

Fionne Orlander is a transwoman who passes very easily but uses male toilets because that is the sex-applicable one.

I think one of Fleur's friends hasn't fully transitioned but 2 and her niece have Doodledog. I also agree that a fully transitioned trans woman should be able to use women's facilities, but apart from relying on their honesty, don't know how that could be regulated.

Your analogies in your post @ 16.56 explain the dilemma very well Lathyrus.

Thanks for the link to that article Glorianny.

Smileless2012

I think one of Fleur's friends hasn't fully transitioned but 2 and her niece have Doodledog. I also agree that a fully transitioned trans woman should be able to use women's facilities, but apart from relying on their honesty, don't know how that could be regulated.

Your analogies in your post @ 16.56 explain the dilemma very well Lathyrus.

Yes- thank you.