Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

FleurPepper
Going to Gender Neutral toilets, where available, could also make them targets of violence.

Thank you for that clear explanation of why females need to keep female only toilets rather than GN toilets.

I sympathise with your friends’ predicament, but it’s sad that female only toilets are rejected for females and we are told that GN toilets would be OK, where you’re saying that TW whom you are convinced would be perceived as female would not be safe in GN toilets.
Why do you feel that would be the case?

Lathyrus

Fleurpepper

''If you have been attacked or threatened by someone using a penis, you are afraid of anyone with a penis that insists on coming into your space.''

they do NOT have a penis - please!

You are asking them to take a huge risk of being verbally, or physically attacked, raped even- but thos who do have one! And are hell bent on making sure they know!

Do you mean toilets and changing rooms? Personally I agree with Doodledog that I would not object to those who have fully transitioned being in female spaces. I can see that male spaces would be totally inappropriate for them.

Can you see why females feel unsafe when those who have fully male bodies are insisting on access to female safe spaces?

Yes, of course.

But I do believe that transgender people who are now female in all apart than gametes, which are totally unseen- are much more at risk if forced to use male toilets, than any other group.

But I do believe that transgender people who are now female in all apart than gametes, which are totally unseen- are much more at risk if forced to use male toilets, than any other group.

Why do you think that women should solve that problem, or at least have transpeople in our spaces until it is solved, rather than men, or transwomen themselves?

There would be howls of protest, and cries of 'how will you police it?' of anyone in power suggested that there should be differential treatment for transitioned and untransitioned transpeople, so whereas some women (not all, though) would make an exception for the surgically transitioned, opposition would come from the trans lobby too.

I never said that 'women should solve the problem' - have I?

And yes, I can see the argument in your last paragraph. And I have said that saying that only those who have gone through hormonal and surgical transition would or should be accepted- because it would increase the number of those who wish to do so.

I am very 'happy' to say I do not have solutions- but that the issues are far more complex than some think- and explain why I will not sign the petition. And that said petition will probably do more harm than good, and put very vulnerable trans women in danger, in so many ways. That is all.

It is a DISCUSSION

No need to shout, FP. I am also discussing.

Can't you see that by saying that TW should be allowed in women's spaces you are basically saying that women have to put up with that unless or until they come up with a better idea? The trans lobby insist that TWAW, and don't see the need for them to do anything other than use women's loos, so won't be interested (their misogyny would prevent any interest in women's discomfort anyway), and men are losing absolutely nothing by not having TW in their spaces, which are continuing to be unaffected.

The matter is complex, but FP do you now understand better why females are so concerned about any decision that says males are allowed into female toilets or other safe spaces etc, etc?

I’m not quite sure why you are dragging your family members into their discussion.
If they are so evidently not perceived as ‘male’ they have probably doing what other similar trans have been doing for years and could carry on doing it unnoticed rather than arguing that “some males” should be allowed in female safe spaces, which would be impossible to police.

The actions of some TW who have no intention of doing anything other than self ID’ing and every intention of making life difficult for females have also made life difficult for trans such as you mention.

However, all the ranting on here seems to be once again casting blame on females and saying that they should stop insisting on places free from males.

Ys, I do understand.

Dragging family members into this discussion? Well, 1 niece and 3 friends. This is totally normal- we all shape our opinions and views partly on things we have experienced ourselves, or those close to us. They are the reason I feel as I do about the issues because of the discussions I have had with them and their genuine fears of being attacked by men, and probably much more so than other women.

But why would they be more likely to ge attacked in GN toilets than women?

They wouldn't. The sort of man who would beat up a TW would be just as likely to attack a woman. That is why we have segregated loos, for goodness sake.

Taking away somewhere that a woman can go to shake off a persistent boyfriend, or to phone a taxi is a massively retrograde step, and whether your friends or their friends are dangerous or not, the principle is the same. Male bodied people should not be in female spaces.

I know DD. I was really asking FP because she says
“ their genuine fears of being attacked by men, and probably much more so than other women”
Whilst ignoring the attacks and harassment suffered by females by males as if her family and friends are more important than any other females.
If they would be mistaken for males /TW then that does not match what she has been saying, so I am puzzled.

I know, Molly. I was backing you up

Doodledog

I know, Molly. I was backing you up

Thank you.

The petition is now over 30,700 and waiting for a government response because of reaching 1,000, 6 days ago.

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NHS Wales - Chief Nursing Officer Sue Tranka is happy to promote this :

The petition is at 33,700.

Thanks for the update FarNorth.

Mollygo

I know DD. I was really asking FP because she says
“ their genuine fears of being attacked by men, and probably much more so than other women”
Whilst ignoring the attacks and harassment suffered by females by males as if her family and friends are more important than any other females.
If they would be mistaken for males /TW then that does not match what she has been saying, so I am puzzled.

Sometimes it is really hard to respond. Of course being concerned about those friends does not in any way, shape or form means that they are more important than other females- at all. And of course they cannot be mistaken for males- this is why if they have to use male toilets, they are put at massive risk of bullying, attacks, and rape. Nothing to be 'puzzled' about.

FP
So how would you protect females from those males/TW who would harm them, without giving permission for all males/TW to use female facilities.
You will have read, from many posters, about ‘butch lesbians’ such a derogatory term used to explain that in the poster’s opinion they ‘don’t look like females’.
You will have read that some posters put the onus on females to report or confront males/TW who are quite obviously male using female facilities.
I understand your concern for those TW who, in previous times may well have been using female facilities and may still be using them unnoticed now. Showing that concern, you are hopefully equally concerned about the safety if those born female.

So how would you protect females from those males/TW who would harm them, without giving permission for all males/TW to use female facilities.

I’m still puzzled.

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Why is 'sex' more important than 'gender' in some situations?

Here's why, explained by one woman who is disabled.

This is a very good article on why clarity is needed in law relating to sex & gender, especially if the Scottish Parliament creates its own rules for gender recognition.

"For employers, service providers and legislators themselves it will become impossible to understand and use the words “man” and “woman” and concepts like “opposite-sex” and same-sex” if they mean something different for a person born in England, Wales or Northern Ireland to one born, or living, in Scotland."

www.scottishlegal.com/articles/amanda-jones-gender-recognition-bill-will-complicate-rather-than-clarify-the-law

and in a world-wide small world context.

Molliygro- I do not have the answer. It is very complex. But for me, putting some humans in proportionately much greater danger, to protect others less at risk .. somehow is far too simplistic and dos not make sense. Especially as real sex, does not 'show' in RL. Many 'real' women look very masculine (butch lesbians- horrible term!), and trans women can look totally feminine.

Fleurpepper

and in a world-wide small world context.

Molliygro- I do not have the answer. It is very complex. But for me, putting some humans in proportionately much greater danger, to protect others less at risk .. somehow is far too simplistic and dos not make sense. Especially as real sex, does not 'show' in RL. Many 'real' women look very masculine (butch lesbians- horrible term!), and trans women can look totally feminine.

All the more reason to have careful laws to make it about sex and not appearance or gender, surely?

And as it is very complex, all the more reason to wait until there are mutually acceptable answers than to force half-cocked 'solutions' onto women so that the trans lobby is mollified.

I don't think I've ever looked at a butch lesbian and not been able to tell she was just that, a 'butch' presenting woman. Not all 'butch' presenting women are lesbians incidentally.

Indeed. I have one trans friend, who has had full reversal, who could pass as 'butch lesbian' (horrible term).