Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

Depends on the questionnaire as to whether or not someone's sex is relevant.

Galaxy

I view believing you can change sex in exactly the same way as I view the belief the earth is flat.
It is about how men behave unfortunately and the differences between offending rates between men and women. The law already exists with regard to single sex spaces, women are just trying to ensure that law is applied.

Just as most people believed the earth was flat, you consider today's knowledge about the sexes will always be the truth. You are saying that what we know now is, and always will be, the limit of our knowledge. I thank heavens people like you didn't get their way when we learned about things like the circulatory system, etc.

It may be as you say, but you (and I) know no more about this subject than the people who, when they looked at the view they could see, thought the earth was flat. Their simple opinions did not make them right.

If this is your area of knowledge, I will listen to what you say. However, all I have heard so far are opinions. For all the repetitions, bias and prejudice, no one has convinced me they know anything of any use.

I will not form an opinion (except about the people posting here) until more knowledge is available. I don't know the truth of it; neither do you.

Wikipedia helpfully correlates all the studies that have been done. Also makes an easy reference for finding and reading those studies

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence#:~:text=Hormone%20use%20can%20also%20affect,the%20anabolic%20effects%20of%20testosterone.

I have more faith in science than belief

Clicking on "Biological Factors" will show what has been learned so far

Just as most people believed the earth was flat, you consider today's knowledge about the sexes will always be the truth. You are saying that what we know now is, and always will be, the limit of our knowledge. I thank heavens people like you didn't get their way when we learned about things like the circulatory system, etc.

Professor Robert Winston appears to have a great deal of experience and expertise in this area, and has stated unequivocally that it is impossible to change sex. Sex is classified according to which part of sexual reproduction your body should (not always can) contribute. To change sex a person would have to lose their penis and testes and grow ovaries, a uterus, cervix, fallopian tubes, and vagina. Or alternatively lose all those female parts and grow a penis and testes. We work with the knowledge we have. Nobody in the history of humanity has changed sex, nobody has been revealed to be a third or more sex with a third or more gamete. Every human on this planet has resulted from the fusion of an ovum and a sperm. Would you prefer we discount this knowledge 'in case' it should ever need amending?

Do you operate like that in all areas daisy. Wait in case the science changes. So perhaps we shouldnt do anything about climate change after all we can't possibly know everything there is to know, and things may change. It's not people like me as you so rudely put it, it's the law. What you or I believe doesnt change the actual law relating to single sex spaces.

Thank you VioletSky.

Well that was catagoric evidence that belief means ignoring known science

If tomorrow I decided oh I was wrong, you can change sex, it would have no impact on the fact that it's not possible. It's dangerous in particular to transpeople to pretend that that is the case.

DaisyAnne

Thank you VioletSky.

No problem

Having an open mind is such a wonderful thing

It's worth looking at "parenting" too

As studies have been done there as well

As far as I am aware it is not possible to change one’s chromosomes ergo you are always the sex you were born.

You can surgically remove body parts and have implants but not change your chromosomal makeup.

VioletSky

Wikipedia helpfully correlates all the studies that have been done. Also makes an easy reference for finding and reading those studies

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence#:~:text=Hormone%20use%20can%20also%20affect,the%20anabolic%20effects%20of%20testosterone.

I have more faith in science than belief

Did you miss this warning (!) at the top of the link?

This article relies excessively on references to primary sources.

No secondary or tertiary sources, no peer reviews, none of it reaches any standard of scientific authority at all.

Belief is what gender identity is all about. Science in which you say you have more faith says it's impossible to change sex. That some people experience gender dysphoria is not questioned, that they can change sex is.

Galaxy

If tomorrow I decided oh I was wrong, you can change sex, it would have no impact on the fact that it's not possible. It's dangerous in particular to transpeople to pretend that that is the case.

Try reading it, there are differences in brain structure and genes

It's not about changing sex it's about establishing your true sex which isn't defined by sex organs

As is proven by studies on those who were raised as girls because they had sex organ difformities and it was easier to create a vagina through surgery than a penis. Their internal gender did not change despite being raised as girls.

It's actually very interesting and you are an intelligent woman capable of understanding it... if you want to

Vs have you actually read it. You cant think it supports your case. Have you read the bit about brain changes and paraphilias.

It references Blanchard, do you know what he said about transpeople.

your true sex which isn't defined by sex organs you mean when DNA testing reveals whether the sample came from a male or female by looking at the chromosomes? The scientist who looks at the evidence not knowing the sex of the donator. Those chromosomes don't change.

Galaxy

Do you operate like that in all areas daisy. Wait in case the science changes. So perhaps we shouldnt do anything about climate change after all we can't possibly know everything there is to know, and things may change. It's not people like me as you so rudely put it, it's the law. What you or I believe doesnt change the actual law relating to single sex spaces.

I certainly have no problem saying, "I don't know", Galaxy.

Climate change has a great deal of scientific exploration behind the conclusions reached. There has been research into gender incongruence, such as that VoiletSky flagged up. However, it is yet to be as conclusive as that on the climate.

I do think the issue is often a lack of imagination. You (and others) seem to be saying that what you cannot imagine, you cannot believe. Thankfully, scientists and those who are a little more critical in their thinking, will reason, question and test rather than thinking they know everything.

I've read many of the actual studies

And if they aren't enough for anyone to at the very least stop and think "we need more research and understanding in this area" then I simply don't understand you or your points.

GC feminists cite they only want to "help" people suffering from gender dysphoria, this is one way to prove it.

GC feminists state they only want to prevent mistakes being made that lead to a person being forced to detransition, and supporting the research that could lead to preventing mistakes is another way to prove it

Otherwise you are solely reliant on your own opinions and that's just your opinion or you are solely reliant on your beliefs and that is just your belief
so you really have nothing to stand on.

Nothing to stand on at all.

If current science is ignored, all we have to go on are opinions. Yes, new breakthroughs happen, and if one does, I may change my mind. It won't alter the fact that male-bodied people in female spaces pose a threat - not all of them, not even most, but the threat is still there from some.

The reason I don't want them in hospital wards or prison cells, or changing rooms with teenage girls, or in pub loos away from the bar is not because they are trans, but because they are men. IMO the insistence that it is ok for men to go anywhere they choose is not about the sensibilities of transpeople at all - it is about men reasserting dominance.

As, I'm sure, with most of us, all my adult life I have occasionally been aware that someone in the Ladies was trans, but as they were just touching up lipstick or something it didn't matter. As people on these threads keep saying, we are not phobic. As we also keep saying, it is these transwomen who are doing badly out of the No Debate mantra. Where once most people would carry on regardless, now women are nervous because of the numerous cases of assault that have happened since we were told that TWAW. Add in the sport issue and the way the language is being masculinised, more and more women are learning about the problems and becoming more vocal. So rather than listening to women, or finding ways to compromise, the TRAs* are blaming the media for 'spreading transphobia', assuming women are hysterical (yawn), and expecting ordinary women who express concern to come up with suitable solutions to insoluble problems or live with them remaining unsolved. No compromise at all from their side - not even any debate. Accept that TWAW or risk violence, doxxing, or whatever treatment they deem fit, and if you complain you are 'phobic' and deserving of more.

*Note that I use the term advisedly, and not to suggest that anyone on this thread would do any of the things I mentioned. (well, apart from assuming hysteria and phobia, anyway).

GrannyGravy13

As far as I am aware it is not possible to change one’s chromosomes ergo you are always the sex you were born.

You can surgically remove body parts and have implants but not change your chromosomal makeup.

Just what are your qualifications in this field GrannyGravy?

Rosie , someone on a hospital ward was physically attacked by another patient. The attacker's sex is a minor consideration compared with the hospital's neglect of patients' safety, and the hospital's inability to protect a vulnerable patient.

The buck stops at the hospital management as the management is well aware patients need to be protected at least as well as if they were in their own homes. It's common knowledge there are dangerous criminals walking about.

DaisyAnne

GrannyGravy13

As far as I am aware it is not possible to change one’s chromosomes ergo you are always the sex you were born.

You can surgically remove body parts and have implants but not change your chromosomal makeup.

Just what are your qualifications in this field GrannyGravy?

What are your qualifications to refute my post?

I would be more than happy to rescind it if you can offer proof that I am wrong.

DaisyAnne as much as people find it offensive, this is why your flat earth analogy works

If people do not believe the science, are uninterested in the future possibilities what we already know opens up and would much rather be driven by their own belief (which is protected under the equality act as they are so happy to inform us)... Well

That's the very definition of a flat earther and very appropriate

Occasionally there will be a scientist that only looks for evidence to back up their own belief... but that is how we ended up terrifying a whole generation into believing vaccines cause autism.

Thankfully I never believed that one and my autistic daughter was different from birth

I didn't refute it GrannyGravy. I asked a simple question about your qualifications. I am not really interested in your opinion.

Every now and then, you may come across someone who thinks they know more about a topic than others, when they actually have little to no background to support that belief. If so, you may have encountered the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Caleo

Rosie , someone on a hospital ward was physically attacked by another patient. The attacker's sex is a minor consideration compared with the hospital's neglect of patients' safety, and the hospital's inability to protect a vulnerable patient.

The buck stops at the hospital management as the management is well aware patients need to be protected at least as well as if they were in their own homes. It's common knowledge there are dangerous criminals walking about.

If a man with complete genitals who identified as a transwoman hadn't been housed on a female ward then he wouldn't have been able to rape a vulnerable woman. I don't consider his sex a minor consideration. Men who didn't identify as women weren't housed on that ward because it was a female ward. The hospital compounded the horror of the assault by insisting it couldn't have happened because there were no men on the ward.