Petition : *Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex*

So men are dangerous to transwomen but men are not dangerous to women is that what you are saying fleur?
I dont think women should be used as human shields for mens violence to other men who present differently.
I think there should be three spaces generally Thats whats happening now in relation to prisons for example following various incidents when men were in womens prisons. I support the idea of third spaces which are open to those who want to use them and spaces which are specifically single sex as specified in the equality act.

VS, as a matter of interest, where have you found access to the studies you mention? I ask as most of what is in the public domain is likely to be reports of the findings of studies, and the studies themselves only available to those with a subscription to academic journals, which are very expensive. If there is a way for everyone to access them it would be good if you could post it, to open it up for all.

I do have access to academic journals, but as with most research they are difficult to understand without a thorough grounding in the topic. Were yours psychology, biology or sociology? I'll have another look later if you let me know.

More discrimination then! If that happened, they would still be targetted and at huge risk of being beaten up or raped, or worse. But it does not matter to you, I imagine- they are trans, so tough luck, hey.

Oh and I believe sport should be segregated by sex, many sporting bodies are stating that is the case now. Again the risk of legal action when women were getting hurt was probably a factor in that shift.

I can assure you that you will never ever know if my niece shares a toilet, or even a hospital room or ward with you. Never, ever. Neither will most nurses, nor doctors. the job was very well done. It would take a very intimate examination to find out.

Galaxy

Oh and I believe sport should be segregated by sex, many sporting bodies are stating that is the case now. Again the risk of legal action when women were getting hurt was probably a factor in that shift.

Totally agree regarding sport.

Blatantly the main difference between my concerns and GC concerns is its foundations.

My concerns cause no active harm to either women or trans people and are shared by untersectional feminists (which include trans women)

However

The sheer amount of bullying I have received being called a TRA rather than what I am, an intersectional feminist is staggering.

The amount of derision towards what intersectional feminism is because it includes trans people is baffling

My belief is in equality and everyone feeling safe and included

But clearly in the absence of anyone who actually wants to put trans rights above women's rights any punchbag will do

And the sheer lack of self reflection by the GC on that issue, even the stance of someone like Galaxy who does not bully at all despite strength of conviction but has stated a preference to stay out of it.... Well ... doesn't really give me any confidence in the GC to achieve anything good at all

You do understand that gender neutral toilets already exist fleur, are you saying they are discriminatory. They are a third space open to everyone who wants to use them.

Fleurpepper

I can assure you that you will never ever know if my niece shares a toilet, or even a hospital room or ward with you. Never, ever. Neither will most nurses, nor doctors. the job was very well done. It would take a very intimate examination to find out.

In my opinion this is not about people like your niece Fleurpepper it is more to do with what appears to be a growing trend of some to have girly days and boy days.

If they think by putting on a dress and lippy they can use the female loo’s one day and when wearing a suit and tie use the mens, it rather mocks women.

Doodledog

*VS*, as a matter of interest, where have you found access to the studies you mention? I ask as most of what is in the public domain is likely to be reports of the findings of studies, and the studies themselves only available to those with a subscription to academic journals, which are very expensive. If there is a way for everyone to access them it would be good if you could post it, to open it up for all.

I do have access to academic journals, but as with most research they are difficult to understand without a thorough grounding in the topic. Were yours psychology, biology or sociology? I'll have another look later if you let me know.

You may join an intersectional feminist group where there are women with that eduction and access if you choose to

Doing so without any respect of the education and intelligence of other women won't help you much

Caleo

DaisyAnne, a sound argument is self supporting , and much of what passes for evidence is common knowledge.

It's usually obvious to the reader whether or not the poster overrates their ability.

Arguments for self-support are themselves considered unsound. Add to that the fact that the arguments put forward on this discussion forum are dubious when it comes to the conclusions they reach and therefore intrinsically unsound, and I would disagree with the premise that these are sound arguments.

All you end up with is what you have here, a circular argument along the lines of "I think, therefore it is true, therefore it is sound."

Not something the sane would generally agree with. Cultish to say the least.

GrannyGravy13

Galaxy

Oh and I believe sport should be segregated by sex, many sporting bodies are stating that is the case now. Again the risk of legal action when women were getting hurt was probably a factor in that shift.

Totally agree regarding sport.

Agreed 100%.

GrannyGravy13

Fleurpepper

I can assure you that you will never ever know if my niece shares a toilet, or even a hospital room or ward with you. Never, ever. Neither will most nurses, nor doctors. the job was very well done. It would take a very intimate examination to find out.

In my opinion this is not about people like your niece Fleurpepper it is more to do with what appears to be a growing trend of some to have girly days and boy days.

If they think by putting on a dress and lippy they can use the female loo’s one day and when wearing a suit and tie use the mens, it rather mocks women.

Agreed 100% too.

Galaxy

You do understand that gender neutral toilets already exist fleur, are you saying they are discriminatory. They are a third space open to everyone who wants to use them.

They certainly are NOT available everywhere!

You may join an intersectional feminist group where there are women with that eduction and access if you choose to. Doing so without any respect of the education and intelligence of other women won't help you much

Eh? I'm not disrespecting anyone. I was asking how to find the studies, as they will span a range of disciplines, and saying that academic studies I have read outside of my own subject area have not been easy to understand. That is respecting the education and intelligence of the authors, not the other way round!

Doodledog

*You may join an intersectional feminist group where there are women with that eduction and access if you choose to. Doing so without any respect of the education and intelligence of other women won't help you much*

Eh? I'm not disrespecting anyone. I was asking how to find the studies, as they will span a range of disciplines, and saying that academic studies I have read outside of my own subject area have not been easy to understand. That is respecting the education and intelligence of the authors, not the other way round!

There was no need to question my education or my ability to understand but you do you

No they arent fleur but that's an answer to one of the issues, gender neutral, plus spaces for those who want single sex spaces.

Fleurpepper

I can assure you that you will never ever know if my niece shares a toilet, or even a hospital room or ward with you. Never, ever. Neither will most nurses, nor doctors. the job was very well done. It would take a very intimate examination to find out.

Ok, so are you suggesting that if people did know that your niece is trans it would make a difference? It is not about 'passing' - it is about being a woman. There are those who flaunt their masculinity but still insist that they feel like women so have to be treated as such. Other transwomen are not particularly stereotypically feminine and don't want to be - where would you draw the line?

Personally, FWIW, I think that whereas surgically transitioned transwomen are still transwomen, there should be a difference made between them and male-bodied ones. That would put enormous obstacles in the path of those who pretend to be women to get what they want, and would mean that people like your niece could carry on as they are doing.

And yes, I know that there are huge waiting lists for treatment, just as there are for pretty much all operations. That doesn't alter the fact that IMO male bodied people should not be in women's spaces, and it is not a problem that I should be expected to solve.

There was no need to question my education or my ability to understand but you do you

I didn't do anything of the kind. Please stop twisting my words.

Doodledog

*There was no need to question my education or my ability to understand but you do you*

I didn't do anything of the kind. Please stop twisting my words.

Self reflection is a wonderful thing

if gender is a social construct then it can be socially deconstructed. which I can only interpret as meaning it does not exist in reality. Therefore in reality there is no such thing as a transgender woman because in declaring self to be a transgender woman a person is by default declaring their manhood

VioletSky

Doodledog

There was no need to question my education or my ability to understand but you do you

I didn't do anything of the kind. Please stop twisting my words.

Self reflection is a wonderful thing

So you keep saying. Reflect as much as you like, but don't twist my words.

Doodledog

*VS*, as a matter of interest, where have you found access to the studies you mention? I ask as most of what is in the public domain is likely to be reports of the findings of studies, and the studies themselves only available to those with a subscription to academic journals, which are very expensive. If there is a way for everyone to access them it would be good if you could post it, to open it up for all.

I do have access to academic journals, but as with most research they are difficult to understand without a thorough grounding in the topic. Were yours psychology, biology or sociology? I'll have another look later if you let me know.

You know full well I am a teaching assistant and do not have any of those qualifications, you've asked me before. I also do not pretend to have the intelligence needed to understand every word of a study and don't pretend to.

I do however have enough intelligence to:

1. Ask people who are qualified to help my understanding

2. Recognise sly behaviour

VS
I do however have enough intelligence to:

2. Recognise sly behaviour. Really?

Self reflection is a wonderful thing! 🤣🤣🤣

I took that to mean Doodledog was asking which of those three disciplines the studies you've seen came under, not that you were claiming qualification in any of those fields. I believe you're taking offence because you haven't read her post correctly. If I'm correct Doodledog would like an indication where you've seen the actual studies, as they would be of interest to many of us. She can access academic journals so could probably find them with your help. I know one or maybe two people that might be able to access the relevant journal if you can tell us which discipline they've been published under.