Healthcare. Is this he thin edge of the wedge?

I can understand that to a certain degree. But it seems wrong for it to be happening in the middle of an NHS clinic session that my son had been told was fully booked for many months in advance.

Grannynannywanny

I can understand that to a certain degree. But it seems wrong for it to be happening in the middle of an NHS clinic session that my son had been told was fully booked for many months in advance.

It’s not normally in the middle of a clinic in my experience, consultants I worked with either saw the private patients between 8 and 9, or at the end of their NHS clinic, often 12.30-1.30. PPs had designated, separate slots for appointments. They were careful not to mix the patient groups, or to encroach on their NHS clinic time with private patients taking NHS slots.

That’s my recollection of the arrangement too Casdon although once I do recall a private patient being seen in the middle of an out patient session but the consultant had arranged for a swap owing to the p.p. having mobility issues and relying on being accompanied by a family member at a more convenient time. The consultant then added two more NHS appointments on at the end of his clinic for NHS patients to compensate. This of course had been pre-agreed with the manager.

Snp has no plans for a two tier system. This was raised at a meeting of NHS heads of health boards and discounted. There are significant concerns about health provision across the UK. Why are so many nurses leaving ? The poor pay generally which has left them behind and the lack of staffing which means they are chasing their tails. This is a UK issue. There was a NHS Scotland story at the 2014 referendum too in an attempt to badmouth snp then.

This thread (and also the articles/reports in the Mainstream Media) has become a discussion on whether paying for some NHS services is a good or bad idea. Fair enough. However, could we agree that the spin that the SNP is considering this way forward, is Fake News, concocted by the Unionist Media to discredit the SNP?

I am shocked that NHS Scotland should even discuss it and it's clear from her reaction that Sturgeon sees it as a massive vote loser for the SNP. The NHS is paid for from taxation so it can be free (with some minor exceptions like prescription charges, etc.) at the point of delivery. I see no reason why the 'wealthy' should not pay more tax so it can remain free. The NHS Scotland discussion risks a two tier system with priority for the 'wealthy' and of course the definition of wealthy would shift down over time to include the middle earners. Good luck with that!!

We're reaching crisis point and I don't think it's wrong for Health Chiefs to discuss all options.

It's just discussion amongst those who have to find a way forward. They will not be making the decisions; governments do that.

I agree, I don't think it's wrong for NHS chiefs to discuss any way out of the problem. What I don't agree with is linking it to SNP.

Casdon

Grannynannywanny

I can understand that to a certain degree. But it seems wrong for it to be happening in the middle of an NHS clinic session that my son had been told was fully booked for many months in advance.

It’s not normally in the middle of a clinic in my experience, consultants I worked with either saw the private patients between 8 and 9, or at the end of their NHS clinic, often 12.30-1.30. PPs had designated, separate slots for appointments. They were careful not to mix the patient groups, or to encroach on their NHS clinic time with private patients taking NHS slots.

In my recent experience, it probably wasn't happening during consultants' clinic times, but it was certainly happening for the other services I had, such as MRIs, ultrasounds, echocardiograms and blood tests. I was asked each time I visited the hospital whether I was a private or NHS patient.

One of the reasons the radiographer was so put out during the incident I mentioned above was because the private patient, who didn't go ahead with her MRI, had taken an appointment which could have been used for a patient from the NHS waiting list. She told me that the hospital is doing an increasing number of private MRIs. Records show that it earned over £5 million from private patients in 2019/20.

The key question is, by what criteria would it be decided that someone is wealthy? Would people have to show their bank statements? Or the value of their house according to the council tax payable? Or their wage slip?

My post was in response to Grantanow who said
I am shocked that NHS Scotland should even discuss it

I'm not shocked as discussion of all and any options should not be shut down.

I realise the SNP disagree with this.

maddyone

The key question is, by what criteria would it be decided that someone is wealthy? Would people have to show their bank statements? Or the value of their house according to the council tax payable? Or their wage slip?

Yes, it's a daft idea.
Are we supposed to take out another mortgage on our homes for a knee or hip operation if we own a house but have a very low income?
Where would it end?

growstuff

Casdon

Grannynannywanny

I can understand that to a certain degree. But it seems wrong for it to be happening in the middle of an NHS clinic session that my son had been told was fully booked for many months in advance.

It’s not normally in the middle of a clinic in my experience, consultants I worked with either saw the private patients between 8 and 9, or at the end of their NHS clinic, often 12.30-1.30. PPs had designated, separate slots for appointments. They were careful not to mix the patient groups, or to encroach on their NHS clinic time with private patients taking NHS slots.

In my recent experience, it probably wasn't happening during consultants' clinic times, but it was certainly happening for the other services I had, such as MRIs, ultrasounds, echocardiograms and blood tests. I was asked each time I visited the hospital whether I was a private or NHS patient.

One of the reasons the radiographer was so put out during the incident I mentioned above was because the private patient, who didn't go ahead with her MRI, had taken an appointment which could have been used for a patient from the NHS waiting list. She told me that the hospital is doing an increasing number of private MRIs. Records show that it earned over £5 million from private patients in 2019/20.

Private X-rays, MRIs, CT scans etc. were always done in the evening or on Saturdays where I’ve worked, as have theatre lists. The payment system for radiologists and radiographers is the same as for other staff working with private patients, so the lists are separated. The only exception would be where there is a private patients ward, and a private inpatient needs an emergency procedure. To accommodate that, extra NHS patients are seen out of clinic times. If a particular department is not working within the private patient protocols, which are very tight, both staff and NHS patients would have a justified complaint.

Well, they're not done in the evening in the hospital I attended. I witnessed it myself and I also know people who have self-funded their own scans, which have been done during the normal day.

If you look at the history of the NHS, it's clear that having enough resources to meet demand has been an ongoing problem. In 2018/19 we spent 12x the amount on the NHS than we did when it was created (even taking inflation into account) and spending has increased since then. It's clear to me that something has to change but it needs to be a cross party decision because it needs radical change and that will never be a vote winner. Sadly I don't think that will ever happen and we will continue to limp along with the service becoming more broken with each coming year. On a brighter note (sort of!) OH contacted our GP with some symptoms, was seen the same day, had bloods taken etc at the same time, received a call from the hospital four working days later and is booked in for a diagnostic test 4 working days after the call as he was happy to take a cancellation. All on the NHS. Our local hospital was in special measures for five years but it seems to have got it's act together! However, when OH called in to pick up stuff for his diagnostic test, there were 16 ambulances queuing at the A&E dept!

growstuff

Well, they're not done in the evening in the hospital I attended. I witnessed it myself and I also know people who have self-funded their own scans, which have been done during the normal day.

You should complain then, if you have evidence that private patients are taking precedence over NHS patients.

foxie If people don't want to fund the NHS, the change needs to be in paying for increasingly expensive procedures and drugs for people who don't have long to live and/or don't contribute to the economy. Would you be happy for that to happen?

growstuff

foxie If people don't want to fund the NHS, the change needs to be in paying for increasingly expensive procedures and drugs for people who don't have long to live and/or don't contribute to the economy. Would you be happy for that to happen?

Goodness, I don't know how you make the leap from me saying that the NHS needs radical change that this would be "the change needs to be in paying for increasingly expensive procedures and drugs for people who don't have long to live and/or don't contribute to the economy". Nowhere have I suggested that.

Further to my comment above. I am, however, willing to pay more towards my own treatment if that improves the treatment for people who are less well off than I am. I have actually made that clear in an earlier post.

foxie48

growstuff

foxie If people don't want to fund the NHS, the change needs to be in paying for increasingly expensive procedures and drugs for people who don't have long to live and/or don't contribute to the economy. Would you be happy for that to happen?

Goodness, I don't know how you make the leap from me saying that the NHS needs radical change that this would be "the change needs to be in paying for increasingly expensive procedures and drugs for people who don't have long to live and/or don't contribute to the economy". Nowhere have I suggested that.

Because that's the only radical change which would save the NHS serious money.

Casdon and Urmstongran Did you work for the NHS before or after the cap on treating private patients in NHS hospitals was lifted? NHS hospitals are now allowed to treat 49% of their patients privately, as a result of the Health and Social Care Act. Casdon I appreciate that you might have worked in Wales and that healthcare is devolved and could be different from England.

It’s not just about money now. The government has thrown £££s at it. The NHS needs to function better. Cut out waste and quangos. Ditch the woke slogans and posters. Cull some of the accepted routines. Find and fund a robust I,T. platform that can be shared across several (or all Trusts). Surely in this day and age this is possible and no longer a technological pipedream?

Years ago (about 6y) our grandson sustained an injury in Spain. He was entered into their health system. The interpreter friend who accompanied us to the local health centre to have his stitches removed afterwards told us his allocated unique number would suffice access at any hospital in their country. I was impressed. In some ways the Spanish health care system is far better than ours (and with outcomes) than what ours delivers.

We need reform, investment and much more. The NHS has lost its way with various Trusts ‘competing’ for ‘clients’ as the money follows the patient. Consequently it cannot decide whether it is running a business or providing a service and falls between the two stools.

growstuff

Casdon and Urmstongran Did you work for the NHS before or after the cap on treating private patients in NHS hospitals was lifted? NHS hospitals are now allowed to treat 49% of their patients privately, as a result of the Health and Social Care Act. Casdon I appreciate that you might have worked in Wales and that healthcare is devolved and could be different from England.

But in practice most hospitals don't have private beds, the ones that do tend to be located in London and as a whole this remains a very small percentage of NHS income, less than 1% in 2016. There are some very good reasons why a private patient might need to be in an NHS hospital eg a non UK person paying for specialist treatment not available in their own country.

As mentioned upthread growstuff I retired 8 years ago which is why Casdon helped me out by her confirmation of what I had experience of at my time in the NHS.

I retired at the end of 2020. growstuff, and I did work in Wales. The English Health and Care Act only received Royal Assent on 28 April 2022 though, so any changes to the way NHS England operates won’t have been enacted yet.