Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

I said: Anybody has a right to comment on anything, of course.

You said: I don’t have to live in Scotland to have my say on this subject thanks.

I know Oreo. I know. 🤦🏼

So what?
I do feel sorry for women in Scotland and the fact that the political parties in Holyrood supported this crazy bill will feel to them to have been dumped on them from a great height.
If it happened here I’d feel just the same.

Hey, you’re welcome to have your say on English matters and laws, we’re all part of the UK and long may it continue.

SNP MPs don't attend debates on purely English matters and they don't vote on them. The Scots Tories do.

If anyone is suggesting that its OK for the UK Parliament to overrule the Scottish one on things they don't approve of, then bring it on. 🤣 It's all grist to the mill.

Oreo

So what?
I do feel sorry for women in Scotland and the fact that the political parties in Holyrood supported this crazy bill will feel to them to have been dumped on them from a great height.
If it happened here I’d feel just the same.

I'm a woman in Scotland. You don't actually know how I feel, sorry to tell you that if it comes as a surprise.

Nobody's dumped on me. Well, nobody Scottish, anyway.

Here's a letter from an MSP to a constituent, explaining why he voted for the GRR Bill.
He was 'just following orders'.

As all the parties, except the Tories, whipped their MSPs i.e. told them how to vote, it doesn't really look very democratic.

.

Oreo

A paedophile who had been convicted could now decide to change gender easily.This would make him both less threatening for any future victims and allow him to access women’s spaces such as changing rooms and a women’s prison if convicted again.Is this right?!

volver your response to this question was
"No. But never mind "

What do you mean by that?

I take it to mean -
"No, it's not right that the GRR has just given that right to known paedophiles, but I don't care and I support the Bill anyway."

Am I right in thinking that's your point?

The GRR Bill, if it becomes law, will affect the operation of law in the rest of the UK, and that is why the UK government is considering whether to take any action.

It's therefore perfectly reasonable for people anywhere in the UK to be concerned about it as I'm sure you would be volver if Welsh legislation was going to affect the operation of law in Scotland.

FarNorth

Oreo

A paedophile who had been convicted could now decide to change gender easily.This would make him both less threatening for any future victims and allow him to access women’s spaces such as changing rooms and a women’s prison if convicted again.Is this right?!

volver your response to this question was
"No. But never mind "

What do you mean by that?

I take it to mean -
"No, it's not right that the GRR has just given that right to known paedophiles, but I don't care and I support the Bill anyway."

Am I right in thinking that's your point?

No, that's not what I meant, I obviously didn't explain myself properly.

Two meanings of "right"; I took it to mean "Is this correct?" Which is isn't, hence my answer of "no."

(As opposed to "is this acceptable?", which I now realise is the intended meaning in this case.)

So "No, its not correct, but never mind because you believe the misinformation that has told you it is and nothing I say will change your mind."

FarNorth

The GRR Bill, if it becomes law, will affect the operation of law in the rest of the UK, and that is why the UK government is considering whether to take any action.

It's therefore perfectly reasonable for people anywhere in the UK to be concerned about it as I'm sure you would be volver if Welsh legislation was going to affect the operation of law in Scotland.

Perhaps its best if we just sail off into the sunset then, and you won't have to worry about it any more.

Or, perhaps rUK could have a look at how they deal with self id'd people from other countries, such as Belgium or Denmark, and just do that?

You assume I'm not in Scotland volver?
You'd be wrong, hence I am very worried about this.

If you think Oreo has posted mis-information, please explain what is actually the case volver.

FarNorth

You assume I'm not in Scotland volver?
You'd be wrong, hence I am very worried about this.

No, I don't assume that.

Why would you say that? I've not said anything like that.

Why are you worried?

Because you volver quoted my post then said "Perhaps its best if we just sail off into the sunset then, and you won't have to worry about it any more."

Worries and concerns have already been stated numerous times .
If you haven't understood them, that could explain your casual attitude.

If you think Oreo has posted mis-information, please explain what is actually the case volver.

We means "us". You and me. If we sail off into the sunset then you don't have to worry about how the Scottish law will affect the rUK law.

No answer yet about how rUK deals with people from other countries who have self ID, I see.

Anyway, let's take one example of what Oreo has posted.

A convicted paedophile could decide to identify as a woman, so gain entry to a woman only prison. What about the women paedophiles that already exist that go to prison. How do they get dealt with?

Well, let's do that then.

We have laws already. Let's use them instead of hypothesising if this happens, and if that happens, then this might happen. Then what shall we do? Answer: Use the laws that already protect vulnerable people.

I'm not going to get into this circular argument again.

Currently the figures for the sexual abuse of children is 99 % Male. Either we need sex segregated prisons or we dont.

One of the laws that protect vulnerable people is the ability for some services to segregate by sex.

I googled "female paedophiles" but I decline to post the link that came up.

We have female paedophiles in society and we deal with them. (4% female incidentally, not 1%, if your google works like mine.)

But as I said, nothing I say will change your mind.

Yes I know they exist. No nothing will change my mind about the need for the sex segregation of services as detailed in the equality act. I have no idea what difference it would be for a Male paedophile to be in a womans prison as it would be for a Male paedophile who identifies as a woman to be in a womans prison.

I misunderstood your charming scenario of you and I sailing into the sunset volver.
I would still have plenty of concerns about Scotland, even if that happened.
As that isn't happening any time soon, tho, we have to liaise with the rest of the UK and it's reasonable for residents there to also be concerned.

Do you think we shouldn't have sex-segregated prisons at all volver?

How about sex-segregated hospital wards, or recipients of care being able to specify they don't want opposite-sex carers?

An informative article about the issuing of a UK GRC to people who already have a GRC from another country.

"Given the small numbers of overseas cases in total, the need to update the list due to any concern about impacts on the ground was obviously limited. The practical impact of the failure to update means that since 2009 somewhere between 0 and fewer than 216 people in total have obtained a UK GRC, even though they would not have qualified for one under the normal UK arrangements.

Scotland presents a very different case. Scottish Ministers anticipate they will issue hundreds of GRCs every year. Many of those will be people who will need and want UK-wide recognition."

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/12/10/at-least-as-rigorous-does-the-overseas-track-imply-anything-about-the-propsects-for-uk-recognition-of-scottish-gender-recognition-certificates/

Is a ‘female paedophile’ someone with ovaries or other female organs, or someone who says they are a woman? Is everyone using the same definition so that reports can be compared? Who (if anyone) is overseeing the ethics committees who have input into the reports that find their way onto Google searches to ensure comparability?

This mangling of the language so that nobody knows what is meant, and comparisons are difficult or impossible to make is one of the things I find scary about the changes brought about by the trans movement.

Good point Doodledog.
We don't know how many years the courts and prisons have been falsely recording the sex of criminals.
It would take only a few 'transwoman' paedophiles to make a significant increase in the figures of those recorded as female, as the number was so low to start with.

No-one is overseeing anything, of course.

Thank you for posting the article from the policy analysis group FarNorth. Having read it, I have this to say.

The article and the observations in it seem to amount to an analysis of how difficult it would be for E&W to handle many applications from people in Scotland who would have been granted new GRCs under the new law. My response to that is... well... tough. Just because the laws of one country make it hard for another, that is not a reason for the first country not to implement any laws which are within its competence. If we want to have a discussion about whether Scotland is a separate country within a union, I suspect that calls for a whole new thread.

So, two more observations; if E&W want to block the law because it would make their lives difficult, I don't believe that is a valid reason. If they want to block the law because they don't agree with it, then that is even less of a reason and implies that the Scottish Parliament has to kow tow to Westminster.

In addition, I would just like to point out to the interested but uncommitted reader that any objection to the standard viewpoint as expressed on this threads descends into accusations like "Do you not want sex-segregated prisons at all?" or "Do you not agree that you should be able to demand single sex spaces"? I won't be answering that because its insulting and its inflammatory. Perhaps the reader on the fence will not fall for the scaremongering and provocative accusations.

Finally, I detect a suggestion in the last few posts that published information is deliberately misleading because "nobody will say what a woman is". I have no answer for that. It's beyond parody.