Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

And about the issues?

Remind me - are you still on the fence, the voice of moderation, an innocent enquirer, or have you come to any sort of conclusion about this issue yet?

Anyone going to actually answer Doodledog's questions?

I would be here all day if I put up every time a GC feminist was threatened with sexual violence or just bog standard violence. Women have collated and kept thousands of these threats. There was a beautiful exchange recently from India Willoughby saying a lesbian looked like a man.

Doodledog

And about the issues?

Remind me - are you still on the fence, the voice of moderation, an innocent enquirer, or have you come to any sort of conclusion about this issue yet?

I was just thinking about that.

A few months ago I started a thread to try to find out what the issues were and why people felt so strongly about them (Sorry to dig up old threads.) I was told I as disingenuous, that I was a scientist so I should know, that I was probably a man. That one sticks with me, obviously.

I think the GC have conflated ideas that make the whole thing seem scary to anyone who reads about it. And I think the Scottish Government are being very aggressive in trying to get this through come what may.

Then I see people on the news like Alex Cole-Hamilton, who I usually have no time for, saying that the bill is a good thing. So yes. Still on the fence, sorry to disappoint you.

And nothing anybody says helps with that.

I think traumatised women and women who need spaces without men (for other reasons) are entitled to those spaces. People cant change sex. Does that help? I am not being arsey. That's my position as briefly as I can explain it.

I am sure I should be aware of Alex Cole Hamilton but I wasnt so thankyou for that. His Twitter thread on this is quite er breathtaking.

My local MPS supports the bill too. I didn't vote for him but he is a good man, and normally implacably opposed to what the SNP want.

Sorry, MSP.

I need coffee.

A few months ago I started a thread to try to find out what the issues were and why people felt so strongly about them (Sorry to dig up old threads.) I was told I as disingenuous, that I was a scientist so I should know, that I was probably a man. That one sticks with me, obviously.

Yes, I know - I said the bit about you being a scientist, as I'm sure you remember. I do think your claims of neutrality were/are disingenuous, as you must be fully aware that changing sex is impossible.

I didn't, however, say you were probably a man. That sort of thing is not my style and not the way my mind works.

I'm not disappointed - just bored of going round in circles with no attempt from trans agenda supporters to engage with any of the questions in a way that could result in debate.

To be fair the liberal Democrats got themselves in a right mess over this at the last election, my strongest advice to any political party would be dont make this issue an issue! on either side of the debate, there hasnt been a political party so far that it has worked well for. They tend not to listen to me though

Says it all.

Having spent most of my working life as a Women's Aid worker it comes as no surprise that I have more concern for the Thousands - yes thousands,of women and girls who are subject to violence/rape/ murder each year by ordinary non trans, male persons. The court reports in my local paper every week record 3,4 or more of these cases, whereas, I have never seen a report of any crime committed by a trans person in a woman only space. I am not saying that has never happened but such cases are a drop in the ocean compared with the Male on Female crime statistics.

When I hear the hysteria around intact males being free to enter Women's toilets and changing rooms, I am reminded that in many European Countries such facilities are often unisex without any problems. With reference to prisons it is a fact that most violent or sexual attacks are perpetrated by males on males. A senior prison officer told me that most requests for transfer to a Women's prison are made by young males who have been assaulted in a Men's prison and who would feel safer in a Women's prison. The fault lies with an under funded/under staffed/over crowded Prison Service.

As to refuges, it is the case that WA have always had the right to refuse anyone deemed 'unsuitable for refuge' e.g. alcoholic, drug dependent, with male children over 16, or if the refuge is full. It is the Local Authority who MUST offer accommodation to anyone fleeing violence, usually in a homeless person's unit, often with continuing support from Women's Aid.

The root of the problem is male on female (and male) violence, not genuine Trans people.

Yes, I know - I said the bit about you being a scientist, as I'm sure you remember. I do think your claims of neutrality were/are disingenuous, as you must be fully aware that changing sex is impossible.

No, I didn’t remember that it was you DoodleDog. However you are clinging to this idea that I am disingenuous, and it seems to me that this is because you can’t believe that any sensible person would know what you know and think differently to you.

I didn't, however, say you were probably a man. That sort of thing is not my style and not the way my mind works.
I am sure it wasn’t you DoodleDog I never said it was. But it was certainly somebody, because its not my style to make things up.

The dredging up of the Winston thing isn’t adding to debate at all. So you can’t change sex. Probably true, I’m not a medical scientist but is seems obvious. But, in my opinion, this is being used as a false premise. It’s a kind of “there you go, the clever people said so, so you don’t have an argument.” It’s using a scientific fact (which I believe) to say that it supports your idea that we shouldn’t move forward with this because a bearded bloke in a sparkly frock might want to give you a bed bath. (I haven’t made that up, I read it on Twitter yesterday.)

And as for JKR and her “destroyer of women’s rights” thing. You don’t think that might be just a little bit over the top? There’s no middle ground here, its just shouting at each other. We’ll get nowhere.

Perhaps we should listen to Granny23.

More grown up debate.

Obviously Winston is correct. Men who want to be women, I wonder how many have still have their male bits. Womb women and penis and testicals man. Of course many are drawn to their own sex and that their business.
Don't do Twitter or Facebook you get so many odd balls.. It might be useful to find a business recommendation, but I steer clear" never heard of Cole Hamilton but if he agrees with gender fluidity I doubt I would. I suppose you have to have a reason to find people like that in the first place.
Those who claim to be scientists and think you can change sex well that beggars belief.
I just hope those protesting are investigated to find out just where they are working. They are dangerous.

That's all perfectly lucid.

Alex Cole Hamilton is the leader of the Lib Dems in Scotland. I suppose that's a reason to have "found him".

I have just had a read of Alex Cole Hamilton on Twitter and what he seems to be saying about sex offenders being able to have a certificate to say they have changed their gender is that gender recognition is a human right and that convicted criminals retain their human rights.

Galaxy

To be fair the liberal Democrats got themselves in a right mess over this at the last election, my strongest advice to any political party would be dont make this issue an issue! on either side of the debate, there hasnt been a political party so far that it has worked well for. They tend not to listen to me though

They are all hopeless. The Tories seem to be dealing with it best, but all of the others appear to be fighting shy of saying anything that might result in annoying the trans lobby.

volver I'm not clinging to a belief - it is just what I think. And it is not because you don't agree with me - there are others who don't agree either, and I don't think they are disagreeing for any reason other than that they think differently. I might change my position on what I think about you (not that it matters, except that you keep going on about a comment I made months ago) if you said what you do think rather than criticise everyone else for their views and ways of expressing them.

My views aren't OTT, in my opinion at least. I have no issues with trans people doing their thing. I believe that we only have one life and should live it as we choose, so long as it doesn't hurt other people or take away their rights. Where I take issue is with the imposition of an anti-feminist agenda onto women and girls. Transwomen (who are men, however they identify) insisting on being able to go anywhere women go is taking rights from us - the right to have women-only spaces. They are also denying women the right to fair competition in sport, to shortlists that attempt to fight discrimination and to the ability to use data that separates women from transwomen and men, in order to make fairer policies. The insistence that people declare pronouns and similar impositions in the workplace, and the adaption of the language in healthcare settings to remove 'mothers' and replace them with 'birth-givers' and so on forces that agenda onto everyone else, whether they like it or not.

They are my objections - not to how people live, and whether they see that is being 'like a woman'. That brings me to my final objection (unless I've forgotten one) which is that the very notion of so-called 'gender' is regressive. There is no such thing as 'living as a woman' (or a man), and the pretence that there is will undo the progress on women's rights that has been hard won over decades.

And I'm not shouting at anyone. I can't show it in a post, but I am perfectly calm.

The GRR Bill has been passed with a majority of 47.

twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1605941951815098379?s=61&t=9bPfST2EBEIRc1E_G6aP6w

Gender stereotypes are nothing but a nuisance. At one time women and girls were expected to be x,y, and z and men and boys otherwise . If a human being with a penis wants to be called 'she' and 'Carol' then why not ?

I am an old woman and if I want to be called Rory, which I'd rather like , why should not others call me by the name of my choice?

A benefit of devolved government for Scotland?

There's a little bit more to it than that Caleo!

Grantanow

A benefit of devolved government for Scotland?

That's OK. The big boys in WM haven't yet decided if we'll get to make our own decisions.

Well as far as this particular decision is concerned, I hope Scotland isn't allowed too.

Well here's the thing.

You don't get a say how we run our country.

Have you let the Spanish know you don't think they should be allowed to do things either?

www.independent.co.uk/news/spain-ap-scottish-parliament-spanish-kemi-badenoch-b2250164.html