Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

Westminster clearly has some say which is why Scotland is unable at the present time to hold another independence referendum.

As far as that goes, I think Scotland should be able to do so but as far as this Bill's concerned, if it can be prevented I hope it is.

Yes indeed. Westminster does, at the moment.

But people who don't live in Scotland, and have no elected post in Westminster? Not so much.

But it appears that those who do live in Scotland and have real concerns about this Bill are being ignored.

It certainly does. I think MSPs who voted for might be in for a shock at the next election. Women aren't happy!
(oops except volver of course.)

I live in Scotland and I know there are plenty of people living in Scotland who do have concerns and who do hope Westminster can prevent out & out self-id for especially for sex offenders .

it seems to me that this is because you can’t believe that any sensible person would know what you know and think differently to you.

You haven't made clear what you do think, tho, volver.
Although you claim to be unbiased and undecided, you criticise those you call 'the GC' but not 'the trans'.

Granny23

Having spent most of my working life as a Women's Aid worker it comes as no surprise that I have more concern for the Thousands - yes thousands,of women and girls who are subject to violence/rape/ murder each year by ordinary non trans, male persons. The court reports in my local paper every week record 3,4 or more of these cases, whereas, I have never seen a report of any crime committed by a trans person in a woman only space. I am not saying that has never happened but such cases are a drop in the ocean compared with the Male on Female crime statistics.

When I hear the hysteria around intact males being free to enter Women's toilets and changing rooms, I am reminded that in many European Countries such facilities are often unisex without any problems. With reference to prisons it is a fact that most violent or sexual attacks are perpetrated by males on males. A senior prison officer told me that most requests for transfer to a Women's prison are made by young males who have been assaulted in a Men's prison and who would feel safer in a Women's prison. The fault lies with an under funded/under staffed/over crowded Prison Service.

As to refuges, it is the case that WA have always had the right to refuse anyone deemed 'unsuitable for refuge' e.g. alcoholic, drug dependent, with male children over 16, or if the refuge is full. It is the Local Authority who MUST offer accommodation to anyone fleeing violence, usually in a homeless person's unit, often with continuing support from Women's Aid.

The root of the problem is male on female (and male) violence, not genuine Trans people.

Of course we are concerned about the women and girls who have suffered male violence Granny23 and we want them to have a male-free service to help them recover.
Yes, there have been assaults on women by transwomen in women's refuges. The easier it is for male people to identify as women, the more likely it becomes that ill-intentioned men will get access to refuges.
Even if a transwoman is completely genuine, unless he passes completely as if he is a woman, his presence could be distressing to women who had believed a refuge to be women only.
This applies whether the transwoman is a client or is on the staff.

You are telling us that young males ask to be moved to women's prisons to feel safer?
Do those young men get transferred without claiming to be transwomen?
If there is a problem in male prisons, which I'm sure there is, that doesn't mean that women have to sort it out.

Do you count Katie Dolatowski as one of those vulnerable young men?
Dolatowski has been convicted of sexually assaulting two young girls, in separate incidents.
He was not jailed and then used false ID to get into a Women's Aid hostel in Leeds.
He was then jailed in a men's prison where he battered another man because he was so upset about 'comments' and about not being in women's prison.
So now he is in a women's prison.

Of course most prison violence has been male on male, because the sexes have been housed separately until recently, and still mostly are.
Can't you see problems arising from the recent court ruling that a person with a GRC must be treated as their chosen sex at all times, swiftly followed by ScotGov saying they will give a GRC to anyone who asks?

Pam Duncan-Glancy was on the radio today talking about 'ribust safeguards built into the Bill'.
I'm not convinced about that but if anyone here knows better, please do point out those safeguards and how they will work.

*Pam Duncan-Glancy MSP, I should have said.

Let's cut through some of the hysteria and the blatant disinformation, shall we? Always remember that some people, not wishing to name any media barons or newspaper editors here, have a vested interest in whipping up outrage over things that have little or no impact on the general public because it a) sells newspapers and therefore advertising, and b) distracts from their own devious behaviour.

The Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Act makes it easier to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) without a psychiatric diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria. It also extends the application process to 16 and 17 year-olds.

That's it. Full stop. Period.

Anybody in has the right to live under any name they like provided that they do not do so for fraudulent purposes¹. Nothing will change there. What the GRC does is to make it easier to obtain a passport, driving licence or other legal document under the chosen identity, and to help resolve issues with private pensions and legacies.

A GRC does not grant magical powers. As far as I am aware there is no door that is forced to open on production of a GRC.

Nobody will be forced to allow anybody into any private space. You probably don't want that big bearded lump in your refuge for abused teenage girls whatever bit of paper is waved in your face. You don't want Rose West in there either and nobody doubted that she was a woman.

Nobody is going to be assigning sex offenders to a women's prison, not on the basis of a GRC anyway. Remember that, whatever you may have heard about one infamous case a few years ago that was clearly down to stupidity in the prison service.

Nobody is going to make anybody have sex with anybody they don't want to have sex with. Rape is still rape.

Basically, the GRC and the GRR (Scotland) Act makes life easier for a small minority of people who feel forced to conform to stereotypes they are not comfortable with. Now, move along please, nothing to see here. The world still revolves on its axis. For most people there will be no change.


¹ There is no criminal offence of fraud in Scotland, although cases are usually dealt with as Common Law fraud.

If only it was that simple!

The second paragraph of your post LadyHonoria conveniently ignores the fact that if this Bill is passed, a man with previous convictions of sexual abuse against women, would be able to apply for, and receive a GRC.

It also ignores the fact that a man charged with a sexual assault could apply for, and receive a GRC before going to trial, therefore forcing his victim to refer to him as 'she'.

You may choose to move on and believe there's nothing to see here but those of us who have genuine concerns, for very real reasons, will not.

Aveline

If only it was that simple!

Indeed. And said with such confidence too.

This never happens, does it?

Keep protesting. Keep making your points. Keep trying to get your points of view codified into law. That's what we do in this country.

Those who do not support this bill are obviously sincere in their worries about it. Mainly.

But when it doesn't happen the way you want it, be aware that it doesn't mean the world is out to get you, and the rest of us are "captured" or supporting the patriarchy. We just think you're wrong.

No it never happens Doodledog, we're simply hysterical purveyors of blatant disinformation. There's nothing to see here. We should just move on.

Now you move along LHD jog on please, because there’s nothing to see here but your patronising rhetoric your blatant misogyny.

QED.

Blatant misogyny, Stormystar? Patronising rhetoric?

Well I'm sorry I spoke to try to shed some light where there has only being heat. Pointing out the actual truth of what the GRR Act – almost certainly the most consulted-on, most heavily scrutinised legislation anywhere in the UK within my memory – actually does, and by extension what it doesn't do, is intended to make things clearer.

Bluff and bluster and sensationalist whatiffery doesn't trump proper argument but it makes proper debate too much like bloody hard work. Ok, you're right and a clear majority of the elected Scottish parliament are all stupid, if that's what you want to believe. I won't try to shed any more light.

And, if what I heard on the radio is correct, any of those who should have been excluded-rapists, sexual abusers of women, could bring the certificate to England and argue that it has to be accepted here.

volver

Keep protesting. Keep making your points. Keep trying to get your points of view codified into law. That's what we do in this country.

Those who do not support this bill are obviously sincere in their worries about it. Mainly.

But when it doesn't happen the way you want it, be aware that it doesn't mean the world is out to get you, and the rest of us are "captured" or supporting the patriarchy. We just think you're wrong.

This rather sounds as though you are off the fence volver which, tbh, you have been sounding like for quite a while.

I hope that you and LHD are right and that no girls or women suffer because of this legislation.
Looking at how things have gone, so far, both here and in countries with self-id already, it doesn't seem too hopeful.

Reem Alsalem, UN rapporteur on VAWG, responded to MSPs who said there is no evidence of wrongdoing connected with self-id. She told them that there is evidence but it is not being properly collected or analysed.
Just as the Tavistock and Sandyford clinics have not been collecting long-term data on outcomes for the children and young people they have treated.
Just as my MSP discovered from the Scottish Prison Service that no separate data is kept of incidents involving transwomen in women's prisons. All incidents are recorded as involving females only.

Another point put to Ms Alsalem was that, about 18 months ago, she signed a letter urging (iirc) Belgium to introduce self-id of sex.
She responded that, since that time, she has seen evidence from many sources which has convinced her that self-id of sex is not working well.
Ms Alsalem said that she would not, now, sign such a letter.

Mollygo I believe that is correct, if Westminster does nothing before it finally becomes law.

It would be similar to Gretna Green weddings which happened because of differing laws.
Once a couple had been married in Scotland, it had to be accepted in England .

www.gretnagreen.com/why-flee-to-gretna-green-a739

Slightly different, in that applicants for GRC will have to be ordinarily resident in Scotland, but same principle.

I don't know if any definition of 'ordinarily resident' has been given.
Would 3 or more years of living in Edinburgh while at university be acceptable, perhaps?

Yep, I'm off the fence.

Mainly because of sensible approaches like LadyHonoria's

Ms Alsalem; do you think she knows Victor Madrigal-Borloz?

Last time I introduced him to the debate it was implied that his view was of no importance because he is a man.

Thank you, LHD, largely I agree you have described the bill and its actual limited effect.

I'm fed up of transphobia around this very very limited bill.
As a feminist I dont consider it a threat. (and a feminist who is just getting out of an abusive marriage with a man, too, but blames the man, and current acceptance of what maleness allows in out society, rather than transwomen!

when I see people in thread after thread actually addressing the problems of abusive maes in our society and the "why's" of it and how we might change it,

I'll be a lot happier in gransnet instead of this endless obsession with a small minority, a few who of course utterly transgress and who are not excusable or forgivable.

why are we not discussing maleness and abuse instead? that's what matters to most women like me who have encountered abuse and trying to recover?

Victor Madrigal-Borloz was in the first part of the same meeting with MSPs.
I didn't find him convincing at all.

Wyllow3 I'm sorry to hear you are in such a difficult situation and completely understand if you don't have the brainspace to think about trans ideology.
That doesn't mean you should dismiss concerns as transphobia.

Please do start a thread about anything you would like to see discussed.