Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

Was just about to post that @ThePosieParker (Kellie-Jay Keen) was back on Twitter.

volver

You should tell that to the protestor who complains about how people will use the new bill to corrupt women and children then exposes herself in the Scottish Parliament.

I don't think 'corrupt women and children' is her objection.
It's the decision to hand GRCs to everyone who wants one, specifically making sure to include sex offenders.
What with that being straight on the heels of the court ruling that a person with a GRC is their chosen sex at all times.
Plus ScotGov insisting that the Equality Act single-sex exceptions can still be used but refusing to create guidance on how they can be used, thus ensuring that service providers will play it safe by not using them.

FarNorth

^Now they’ve helped to get the Bill passed, maybe the Scottish Greens might return to being a party who campaigns on environmental issues. But they’ve lost my vote, almost certainly for ever.^

Not with the current leadership, it won't.

Maggie Chapman is obsessed with Gender Recognition for nonbinary people and for children younger than 16.

Yes, no doubt that’s what they’ll start pushing for now. Sigh!

Also, she didn't expose herself.
She was in costume, making a legitimate protest.

Elaine Miller did not “expose” herself, it was a merkin sewn on to a pair of tights. Now someone who did recently “expose” himself was TIM Jordan Gray on a C4 show. He stripped totally naked, pranced about and then proceeded to “play” a piano with his ever so paltry penis. And guess what, he got lots of praise and adulation for his performance. “Described as being “stunning and brave”. Double standards! Never!

volver

I don't expect women to wheest. Just don't expect everybody to agree with you.

I don't. And if you can show me where I have implied that I do I would be interested to see it.

If people would talk to me about the issues instead of making nasty digs and pointless comments based on nothing, I would be happy to discuss. But that's not what happens, is it?

As I said upthread, I would very much like to know how this is going to work in practice. What is meant by 'living as a woman'? And who will judge whether the 'womanly' standard has been achieved? Will it be as regressive as many women fear, or have the parameters of what it means to 'live as a woman' been redrawn? Oh, and what about actual women who don't live up to them? Will there be consequences?

It would be great if someone who is pleased about the result would explain, as I am very unclear. I know I am a woman - I have had pregnancies and borne children, I had periods and then a menopause, I grew breasts, I have female genitals.

But I wear trousers sometimes and dresses at others. Docs sometimes and heels at others. My hair is sometimes short and sometimes long. I either do or don't wear make up. Even my name is unisex. I share household chores with my husband, and have shared childcare. I worked and earned my living. I don't drink now, but did when I was younger, and sometimes drank pints and sometimes Babycham.

Am I sometimes a woman, but not at others? And who is going to tell me which I am at any given time? If I commit a crime wearing docs and short hair, might I be sent to a male prison?

Tim Jordon Gray, should never work again, his perverted behaviour is not acceptable, he is either mentally ill , or just a nasty piece of work, I suspect the later. As for that awful excuse for a man who groomed a vulnerable disabled girl, have him castrated, he won't do it again. . Some of the people seem to think such depraved behaviour acceptable and really are not worth engaging with, as I've said they have their own agender and it's not for the benefit of women and the vulnerable. Is this SNP ?

Doodledog Is it not obvious? You’re non-binary! And your husband must be as well, from what you say about him. Congratulations to you both! 😂

Let me turn the question on its head.

Let's take the area where we are most likely to agree. As far as I know most people on this thread accept that there are a small number of people who have always. -from early childhood - identified as a boy tho born as girl and vice versa.

Just as a number of children know they are attracted to same-sex partners and grow up as gay.

What safe and benign paths can we create for the transchildren to grow up without hatred and fear? To be accepted for the person they are, just as we'd wish for all our children?

Allsorts Having known Jordan Gray in the past I would say mentally ill. A person can only take so much abuse and discrimination and then they break and lash out in some random odd manner in completely the wrong direction. He had reached his breaking point and unfortunately that was his lashing out.

That what you wear, the activities you do, etc have no impact on your sex.
The advice now for children is watchful waiting and generally those issues resolve. So I would follow current NHS guidelines.

What safe and benign paths can we create for the transchildren to grow up without hatred and fear? To be accepted for the person they are, just as we'd wish for all our children? Children must be free to dress how they like, play with whatever toys they want, follow whatever interests them, without it leading to assumptions about their future. There are enough gay adults who say that had they been children now they would almost certainly been assigned as trans, especially very feminine boys. A child who still believes in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy is hardly capable of the complex knowledge about sex and genders to make that decision. I'm wary of lots of affirmation of a child's transgender status simply because it could lock them into a pathway they'd have left without adult enthusiasm. As Galaxy says follow current NHS guidelines.

As far as I know most people on this thread accept that there are a small number of people who have always. -from early childhood - identified as a boy tho born as girl and vice versa.

No, I don't accept that.

Every account I've seen, of 'trans children ', is based on stereotypes and adults' preconceived ideas.

Even when we're told the child said something like "God made a mistake" or "Mummy, I'm a girl" it's easy to see why they would think that, based on adults' behaviour to them.

Does anyone know of any instance where that isn't the case?

then they break and lash out in some random odd manner in completely the wrong direction.

So why did we seea deluge of praise for his 'ground breaking' 'refreshing' performance?

FarNorth
No, I don't accept that.

Every account I've seen, of 'trans children ', is based on stereotypes and adults' preconceived ideas.
👏👏👏
Right back to The Who song, where a boy tries to convince his mother that he isn’t a girl!
We have just acquired a child raised as ‘gender neutral’ until he was nearly four. His parents expressed concern about him being allowed free choice of play activities now he has “settled on being a boy”.
If they hadn’t mentioned it, we’d never have known, so who was the ‘gender neutral’ status for?

Yes, Farnorth, I do.

Its well documented going back centuries there are those who feel this way from very early on before puberty. I know one such who is a Quaker in my MfW.

I have also spoken in depth to my niece who is a headteacher in a very large comprehensive in the SW of England and she has come across a few in her working life. One in particular at the moment, who has known since age 6/7 that tho born as a girl has always felt she was really a boy. Parents not happy with it, but he is well adjusted and dresses and acts as "boy" at school, he is 14 now. Teachers on parents evenings use the birth given female name to parents but the child's chosen name to the teenager in school.

What interests me is that it's not this "huge issue" with the other children: he is confident and well liked. Her impression is that young people are far. far, less concerned about gender fluidity than us older ones. The school approaches these matters with acceptance/non biased counselling where there is distress but as regards information the young people are far, far more informed than most older people and less afraid of change.

Farnorth instead of accepting that gender dysphoria is a small part of part of the human condition, you seem to search for parental or psychological reasons.

Blame somebody? There "has" to be a "reason" as its "unnatural"

What worries me is your POV is very dangerously close to the old attitude to gay people - that there is something "Wrong" or "unnatural" going on and they should undertake conversion therapy. "Therapy" these young people out of something that is natural to them? Very punitive.

I agree with Wyllow. Each of my children had friends who were born male, but became female. I know that one is now fully transitioned. I'm not sure what you FarNorth mean by "adult's behaviour towards them". Both have siblings who are happy to live with the gender they were assigned at birth. Their parents were, I think, surprised, but have been accepting. My children were completely accepting that their friends identified as a different gender - it really wasn't any big deal.

About 25 years ago, I taught a girl who started identifying as male when in mid teens. During puberty, she developed broad shoulders and narrow hips naturally and, with hindsight, it was obvious that there had been gender dysphoria issues. She was referred for counselling and once discussion started, it was evident that her self-confidence grew. I heard that she started living as a male after she left school. I don't believe there was any pressure to adopt any particular identity. Again, younger people didn't appear to have issues.

Sorry but the phrases living like a Male and act like a Male are stereotypes that I thought had disappeared years ago.
The Cass report is saying that there is not enough evidence to say social affirmation is not harmless so I am wondering what guidance the school you mentioned is following.

Are you saying the detransitioners and whistleblowers are lying? They are speaking very clearly about the fact that homophobia in some cases was a reason for transition, this is particularly true in young girls transitioning.

There are currently 30 000 people on the detransitioners support forum, impossible I agree to verify what this means, but maybe an indicator that a pause for thought might be worthwhile, those young people are not ok or do they not count?

I was determined to stay off this thread today, but here I am. So sharpen your pencils, chaps.

Every account I've seen, of 'trans children ', is based on stereotypes and adults' preconceived ideas.

I only know one trans person, (as far as I know) born a girl, became a boy.

Now you can all argue all you like about the meaning of words like "live like a Male" or whatever, but this person knew from childhood that they had been born with a physical manifestation that did not suit them, and what they knew they were inside. I have no idea if they are fully transitioned, because what they have in their underwear is none of my business.

Putting words in people's mouths, which we can usually spot by a sentence starting "Are you saying that..." then followed by a complete non-sequitur, is partially why it is impossible to debate with people with entrenched ideas.

To coin a phrase... "Some people are born needing to be trans. Get over it."

'adults' behaviour towards them' means adults trying to insist on stereotypical behaviour & clothes & toys.
Can you confirm that the people you know of, in history and now, have been completely free of that?

Mollygo what do you mean by 'acquired a child'? Are you in a nursery, or school?
Are you saying the parents want the child to be encouraged to be 'boyish' now that he's 'decided'?

grannydarkhair

Elaine Miller did not “expose” herself, it was a merkin sewn on to a pair of tights. Now someone who did recently “expose” himself was TIM Jordan Gray on a C4 show. He stripped totally naked, pranced about and then proceeded to “play” a piano with his ever so paltry penis. And guess what, he got lots of praise and adulation for his performance. “Described as being “stunning and brave”. Double standards! Never!

I know right again misogyny in action

I am afraid that really isnt the position now Volver, the cass report is clear about that. Although I am not sure 'get over it' was ever seen as guidance for a very complex issue.

Galaxy

I am afraid that really isnt the position now Volver, the cass report is clear about that. Although I am not sure 'get over it' was ever seen as guidance for a very complex issue.

I'll just pop off then and tell my young acquaintance that the adults made him the way he is, and he's been misled all these 20 years or so.

I expect he'll just get over it.