Scotland's Gender Recognition Reform Bill to be debated today 20 Dec & voted on 21 Dec

FarNorth

'adults' behaviour towards them' means adults trying to insist on stereotypical behaviour & clothes & toys.
Can you confirm that the people you know of, in history and now, have been completely free of that?

Mollygo what do you mean by 'acquired a child'? Are you in a nursery, or school?
Are you saying the parents want the child to be encouraged to be 'boyish' now that he's 'decided'?

Yes, as far as I could for any child. The parents of one of the children are reasonably good friends. They are the last people in the world to have ever insisted on stereotypical clothes and toys. I can't speak for other parents, but you asked for single examples.

You can pop off and do what you like. It wont make the cass report not exist. I will pop off and tell those who are detransitioning that it wasnt a mistake after all.

Cheers. Lunch time. So, my parting shot.

You seem to think that every child who has decided they are "in the wrong body" (as we used to say) has been subject to adult pressure to be that way, although I accept that you may think the "pressure " was not intentional.

Three people have told you otherwise. But stick to your guns, if you want to. After all, you have a Report.

A very thorough report. Pop off now and enjoy your lunch.

Individual examples arent particularly helpful either way, one of the failings with regard to the tavistock was lack of long term follow up, this is something which appears to be a familiar theme in this issue and is of great concern. It appears, again it is difficult because of lack of follow up, that the suicide rate does not decrease following surgical intervention, these are very serious concerns, and we cant just pretend that everything is ok.

Galaxy

Individual examples arent particularly helpful either way, one of the failings with regard to the tavistock was lack of long term follow up, this is something which appears to be a familiar theme in this issue and is of great concern. It appears, again it is difficult because of lack of follow up, that the suicide rate does not decrease following surgical intervention, these are very serious concerns, and we cant just pretend that everything is ok.

But FarNorth asked for individual examples. I happen to know of two.

Sorry Volver I keep forgetting science and independent reviews of services are now bad things.
I dont need to stick to my guns,
I dont decide on the current guidelines for young people with gender dysphoria.

Yes I know growstuff, I just dont think its particularly helpful on either 'side' of the debate. And I too have produced individual examples. Children and young people need evidence based treatment, they deserve that much.

I accept that some young people could have had pressure to conform to a stereotype (not just in gender-related matters, by the way), so hopefully you accept that some children genuinely believe they have a physical body they don't feel is right for them.

Yes I do, there are numerous forms of body dysmorphia. I want the treatment if gender dysphoria to be evidence based or there is a risk we look back in horror at the treatment we offered.

They are big issues for children and young people to consider.

When the Tavistock was closed the clear recommendations were for regional centres to be set up where support and genuine supportive-but-"questioning" counselling could take place.

This has not happened. A young scotswoman on the news last night had waited 4 years.

Locally, there is in the MH sector, where atm, these services are situated, 1.4 workers who have referrals for ALL sexual/relationship counselling.

I'd like to see far more calls for this kind of support instead of endless, "they are taking services away from natal women".

Er what happened at the tavistock happened because of the whistleblowers and partly because of GC feminists raising concerns. It has been GC feminists who have stood in support of the detransitioners. I think many if us have worked very hard Wyllow.

Crikey of not if.

Galaxy

Yes I do, there are numerous forms of body dysmorphia. I want the treatment if gender dysphoria to be evidence based or there is a risk we look back in horror at the treatment we offered.

What kind of evidence would you want to see? (Genuine question)

And what kind of treatment would you want?

Galaxy

so you did,

but if there is not the support, for those who need it,
we are left with hundreds of struggling youngsters and a debate which can only give rise to fears and "oppositional" thinking. As in the message

"oh you are just puzzled and mistaken and likely to harm women by just wanting to be yourself"

despite so many transwomen just wanting to live an ordinary life like the rest of us.

The public narratives are now round the "extremes" and are frequently transphobic. I do NOT "hear" transphobia from everyone here of course but to deny that a child might genuinely have body dysphoria and go on to live a good life in the gender they feel they belong to IS transphobic.

If it hasn't already been said, I think the late, great George Orwell wrote something long the lines that some ideas are so preposterous that only an intellectual could believe them. I wonder what his thoughts would be on this.

My view is that we are charging ahead with a simplistic solution ( just change your gender) to what is a complex package of issues that arise from believing/feeling that your body is at variance with your mental state.

All sorts of things can create that dissonance. Pressure from others, a need to escape from abuse, society’s expectations, early trauma, a natural phenomenon, the list can go on.

I can’t agree with the pressure and expectations that transition is the automatic way forward for all those people. Especially I don’t agree that it is the way forward for children whose understanding of the world is often confused in regard to all sorts of things. Birth, death, gender, how our bodies work in general.

Anyone who has spent large amounts of time with young children has enjoyed listening to their ‘logical” thinking on a whole range of subjects and enjoyed the sensible but not sensible conclusions they reach.

But anyone who has spent time knows how very, very anxious they are for approval from the adults around them and how very, very easy it is for adults to manipulate them into saying or doing anything they want, consciously or unconsciously.

Galaxy

Sorry Volver I keep forgetting science and independent reviews of services are now bad things.
I dont need to stick to my guns,
I dont decide on the current guidelines for young people with gender dysphoria.

Sorry to blow my own trumpet.

But you know you've jumped the shark when you accuse me of being unscientific. 🤣 🦈

grannydarkhair

Doodledog Is it not obvious? You’re non-binary! And your husband must be as well, from what you say about him. Congratulations to you both! 😂

Isn't everyone these days? Since the days when Janet and John lived with Mummy and Daddy, Mummy stayed at home, and Mrs Scrubbit helped her in the house with Janet chipping in at times, and Daddy went to work, whilst Sam helped him in the garden and John watched admiringly as Daddy did manly things like sawing logs. Mummy always wore a smart skirt and blouse, Mrs Scrubbit a pinny, Janet a dress, John long shorts and socks, Daddy a suit and tie, and Sam overalls. Everything was ordained by your age, sex and class in that world, which seems to be the one to which Some People would like to return, except with more glitter and lots of shouting. That was breaking down significantly until recently, when 'identification' came in. I wonder - if I decided to identify as rich, would that mean I would be allowed into first class waiting rooms and VIP areas?

I expect he'll just get over it.
Maybe. Or he could 'sharpen his pencil' and explain what his experience has been*, which will, of course risk having his views dismissed with a swipe, as ours have been. What is it about your newly acquired views that makes them so right that you can just write off those who don't agree with you? (newsflash - not everyone is going to do so)

*Obviously there is no obligation for anyone to explain their lives, but as I keep saying, there are constant demands for fact-based feminists to explain their thought processes and to defend themselves against entirely unfounded (not to say cliched and tedious) allegations of racism and homophobia, with nothing coming back in the other direction, even out of courtesy.

Just magnanimously granting permission for us to 'argue all we like' - not about the meaning of words, but about the basis of a new law - is not remotely the same as engaging in a discussion and giving an alternative point of view. What was your feeling about your friend's situation whilst you were still on the fence? Presumably there was some opinion on the matter then that at least mitigated what you now feel since the act went through?

The fact-based arguments are many and varied, and are repeated on here over and over - to the point where they are getting tedious to write. In reply, if we get one at all, is 'just because', anecdotes about individuals, whose experience are, to goes without saying, valid, but are not necessarily representative of anything else, or arrogant dismissal. Is it any wonder none of us seems likely to change our minds?

Tedious. Definitely.

Ask for examples, you're going to get examples. (*FarNorth*, 9:48 this morning) So don't then complain about examples just being "anecdotes".

And to be clear, in case it needs saying; I have never accused anyone of being homophobic or racist. I have drawn parallels between the way language was used about different races in the past, and how assumptions were made about them that have parallels in the trans debate. As for homophobia, I've never gone near that description, and nor would I.

I don't want or expect you to change your minds. As I said, stick to your guns. Also as I said before, we just don't all agree with you.

I think it's a very complex issue growstuff, I find the comorbidities of concern, children with autism appear to be over represented so to speak, and there is some information on girls who have experienced abuse, (of course these young people would want to escape puberty), looking at those issues is very important. The chances of that happening in the current political climate are low as that's expensive work.
I have spent over 30 years working with children with autism, I cant tell you how many times we get it wrong, honestly time and time again.

I don't want or expect you to change your minds. As I said, stick to your guns. Also as I said before, we just don't all agree with you.
Perfectly put and even better, it applies whichever belief you support.

I agree with you galaxy. I may as well get that tattooed on my arse

I don't want or expect you to change your minds. As I said, stick to your guns. Also as I said before, we just don't all agree with you.
I have no guns to stick to - I would be interested in a debate if anyone explained why they think as they do rather than simply being dismissive, but I can't see that happening any time soon.