Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

Sorry - formatting fail above.

I'm not out there with any sort of activism or petition signing or joining any kind of organised group or protest

People say they want inclusively and acceptance for trans people and only engage in active steps that achieve the opposite

Metaphorically chasing trans people back into the closet with pitchforks under the guise of protecting women for the most part

I don't know how you can't see that

Do you consider following NHS guidelines chasing trans people with pitchforks.
I want people who are experiencing gender dysphoria to have evidence based support. So far the support they have received has been based on mantras which have failed them.

I cant see it because I hold a different view to you.

Please let me know when your views achieve anything positive for our young people

No thanks VS. Do you think I feel the need to justify my beliefs or views to randoms on the internet. I would worry a lot about anyone who felt the need to do that.

Views have nothing to do with it, whether you want to call them views or opinions or beliefs or believe yourself an infallible human being getting everything right on a trans debate that doesn't involve listening to actual trans people and their feelings/needs... Unless we count the examples thrown out as an "idea" of "trans" instead of what they really are: examples of the worst humanity has to offer...

This never was any kind of debate or sounding board or discussion

It's just a soap box

And worse? People are listening and acting and signing and taking no responsibility for their own actions apart from rejoicing what they take and offering nothing back

And you think that's fine because "But its my view!"

Really soul destroying

You cannot justify your views

It's that simple

Without accountability and responsibility there is no justification

This is your religion, your great omnipotent belief that only harms and never helps but that's OK because presumably there is a utopia at the end where trans people all went poof and stopped existing by force of divine will

*sigh

I can't see why affirming something that has exploded in numbers in recent years can be considered positive. Nobody can explain why there are so many children claiming to have been 'born in the wrong body' when such claims were unheard of until recently.

It seems to me that having school staff going along with these claims, and encouraging/coercing other children into going along with them would be a good place to start looking at why this might be the case.

Of course I would never advocate bullying, and of course that applies if the bullying is based on trans issues, but I think that staff should deal with that as bullying, not affirm trans status in children to counter it. If a child genuinely feels that he or she is in the wrong body, refusing to call them River or Sky and change their pronoun won't alter that.

Children should not be segregated or treated differentially because of sex anyway, other than in PE and as regards toilet facilities. IMO these should be sex based, as boys and girls have different bodies. In the case of PE, this could cause physical risk to girls, and in the case of toilets, girls need privacy for periods and boys don't need girls walking past them when they are using urinals.

In all other lessons that I can think of, it doesn't matter whether children are girls or boys. If they are called by their names it will be rare that pronouns are used in their hearing anyway, so why does it matter? What is transphobic about that POV?

Bear in mind that we are talking about children here. There is no question of forcing people into closets with pitchforks. The question is about pushing people out of closets when they were simply considering their options, and are too young to know what they want. Why can't you see that?

My views are as follows and are protected by law. You cant change sex, women need sex segregated spaces, children should be treated following NHS guidelines and there should be comprehensive research into what support works. Which of these views would you like me to be accountable for.
Oh you may notice that there is nothing in there about trans people going poof. I am not sure where you have seen that viewpoint. Sigh.

Asking me why can't I see that is like asking me why marginalised demographics have suddenly seen a glimps of a world that could accept them in the past

Women

POC

Gay people

We all came out of our closets as individuals and asserted our own needs

There was an upsurge each time where those who kept quiet suddenly found the voice to express themselves

The fight for equality belongs to everyone and none of us have it while any group is marginalised.

Not a single one of us

I'm going to let what I've said stand before the message gets any further dirtied

Self reflection is key

a trans debate that doesn't involve listening to actual trans people and their feelings/needs.

Have you not noticed how many times the only "women" invited onto panels discussing these issues are transwomen? Actual women's viewpoints and how aspects affect them isn't even hinted at. So we have men and transwomen discussing issues that are sometimes detrimental to women and children.
I'm hearing celebrity transwoman India Willoughby is to be a panel member on Question Time tonight. I wonder if IW will repeat some of the tweets they're so fond of posting, the ones that say if black women count as women so should transwomen, or if disabled women count as women so should transwomen. And if India is ever criticised it's because "transphobes"

And worse? People are listening and acting and signing and taking no responsibility for their own actions apart from rejoicing what they take and offering nothing back So taking women's words, single sex spaces, sports, awards etc isn't taking and offering nothing back in your world? Children need protecting from undue influence, and immediate eager positive affirmation can certainly be undue influence, encouraging a pathway that makes stepping back less likely. Children like to be admired and celebrated and they seem to especially be if they declare T or NB. It isn't unnoticed that the gender and sexual orientation flags displayed in classrooms etc are highly coloured but the straight one is solid grey. If as a child you are told you can choose your gender and sexuality who is going to go for boring plain grey?

no one is bothered about trans gender people having their own set of rights

I am not disagreeing with any of that.

What I am saying is that sexism, racism and homophobia were/are based on something that is integral to people, and that does not impact on other people. A woman having rights does not take rights from men, other than the right to have someone wait on him whilst he holds the purse strings. Black people having rights does not take rights from white people other than they might have to take their chance at a good seat on the bus. In both cases, the pool of people who might act as competition at work was increased, which is why we still see people bleating about how someone 'played a card' or 'only got the job because of a quota'. Gay people never took rights from straight ones.

Transwomen are asking to take rights from women. The right to privacy and dignity in toilets and changing rooms. The right to compete fairly in sport. The right to safety in prison, hospital, refuges and elsewhere. Even the right to win a bloody award at the Brits.

That is why women are less patient than usual.

(also, are you seriously suggesting that there has always been a large number of people who were 'in the wrong bodies' but didn't mention it until now?)

PS. You are fighting this battle alone on this thread, and I appreciate that it can't be easy. I don't want to come over as patronising, but I do admire you for that, FWIW.

I've done it again . I don't like to annoy people with lots of nested quotes directly below the one being quoted, but others have got in between mine and VSs post of 18.32. That's what my previous post was answering.

It's good to let things stand then the lurkers can see.

I hope someone challenges IW on some of the things they have said about lesbians, they were appalling.

Galaxy

It's good to let things stand then the lurkers can see.

Some of the lurkers agree with me

I'm here for them

Well, India Willoughby is most unlikely to say anything insightful

I know, Rosie. It's all about having our feelings mansplained to us, isn't it?

Going back to the school thing, I don't think it's all malicious. There are, of course, adults who get affirmation from championing the cause of 'underdogs' as it's good for their ego, and makes them feel relevant and 'kind'. When the underdogs are children this can be dangerous.

I also wonder whether calling young children 'students' has made people lose sight of the fact that we are, in many cases, talking about 6 and 7 year olds.

Galaxy

I hope someone challenges IW on some of the things they have said about lesbians, they were appalling.

IW is a nasty bit of work. IW's views on women of colour don't bear scrutiny either. In general, IW is another one whose desire to be a woman seems at odds with IW's opinion of us.

I'm going out in ten minutes, but will catch up with QT when I get in. If I'm back late I'll pick it up on iPlayer.

VioletSky

I'm not out there with any sort of activism or petition signing or joining any kind of organised group or protest

People say they want inclusively and acceptance for trans people and only engage in active steps that achieve the opposite

Metaphorically chasing trans people back into the closet with pitchforks under the guise of protecting women for the most part

I don't know how you can't see that

The same way that you can’t see that what you say isn’t correct.
Emotive language which once again implies that everyone else condemns all trans people does no good to the trans cause and isn’t true.
Wrongly conflating trans issues with gays and lesbians -I won’t explain that again because if you didn’t understand that when Doodledog put it clearly, reading it again won’t help.

Should inclusivity be one-sided?

Can I ask if any of you actually know anyone who has or is transitioning? If you do and I seriously doubt it, you might just might, see it all from a very different viewpoint.

Yes, but there's no room for us here paddyann54.

Yes of course I do. How patronising you sound.
Do you know any detransitioners if so you might see it from a different point of view.
Oh and you do understand that there are gender critical transwomen and transmen or does that not fit with the narrative you have.