Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

Crikey the language has changed already, so far today I have heard two politicians on TV refer to this man as a he, and BBC news has just allowed the term trans identified males to be used.

Wyllow3

The nature of the wording and attitude expressed in the whole post, Callistemon21.

In the context of the whole post, it feels like a demand, given that "waiting" is pretty much the same in terms of what it actually asks.

It implies that a response should be forthcoming:

I wished to make the point that this is not reasonable in my opinion.

I think it's a fairly reasonable expectation that a spokesperson might make a public statement condemning this and assuring the public that this is not on their agenda.

Who is appointed spokesperson for transpeople?

Do women have an appointed spokesperson? Or men? Or red heads?

Husband "so what's on the trans agenda tonight then?"

Me "Apparently someone from the trans community needs to apologise for rapists existing and denounce all hate speech towards those who claim GC feminism on behalf of all transpeople"

Husband "people need to apologise for things they haven't done and denounce things they haven't said?"

Me "yep"

Husband " surely someone has to tell them how ridiculous that sounds"

Me *puts hand up

VioletSky

Iam

Have you spoken to all of them?

How do you know they haven't?

Does it have to be to you personally?

Iam64
I stand with Mollygo - I’m waiting for the trans community to state thst threatening to rape, murder, behead women they accuse of being terf is just wrong.

What, do you want to line these people all up and demand they swear officially or something.
Why would they need to do that?
They make all their other statements public. They gather together in crowds to attack females and announce it to the media who are in attendance or post them for the admiration of the TSP on Twitter or Facebook.
Is using technology not suitable for trans to say that the actions of some abusive, cheating, or the latest excuse according to . . . fake trans is wrong?
Why is it not suitable? They could even do it anonymously in the same way as many of them perpetrate the attacks and threats.

VioletSky

Oh come on Mollygo

Just because I am a parent

That was low

But you said it. VS.

If the trans gender community doesn't stand against the few who think it's acceptable to threaten to rape, murder, behead women they accuse of being terf then yes, their silence is condoning this despicable behaviour, and doing absolutely nothing positive for their cause.

Their silence is deafening isn't it. They want to identify as women and yet say nothing in defence of the natal women they wish to identify as.

So you want all trans people, who may not be members of the same organisation or even a member of any organisation at all, to affiliate themselves with disgusting behaviour by apologising/denouncing it?

You want them to shoulder the blame by doing that? To soothe your feelings on the matter they must take personal responsibility for a criminal element that exists in every demographic?

No that's not a reasonable expectation at all

On a singular personal level, trans people can and do call out the things you describe and are outraged by it.

Some do not mention it at all for fear of attracting unwanted attention

Some trans people are not "out"

Some trans people are minors

Having the expectation that they all do it in such a way as you personally get to hear it is unrealistic and unfair

Especially if you are not actually visiting the places you can hear trans people speak and get to know them

OK let's try the reverse

Imagine if someone asked all GC feminists to apologise for and denounce the vile things said to trans people? The death threats, the times trans people have been abused in public etc. Do you even have an organisation a lot of you belong too? Would you expect them to be willing to do that in a publicly visible way?

FYI

If anyone ever asks you to do that, please tell me, I'll have a wonderful time explaining to them exactly how ridiculous and unreasonable that sounds

I think its fair to assume that just like the rest of the population, some trans people are """Activists" and speak out on their particular situation or issue, and many simply don't and live their lives. I dont expect all people of colour to have to act as spokespeople, nor gay people, nor someone with say a religious conviction to defend or accuse those in their "grouping.

There was yet another excellent programme today on the atrocities being committed on women in Iran. There are women in this country who still suffer FGM. I sometimes wonder why so much energy is spent on trans issues on GN, the same people raising an O/P with yet another "angle", and ignore so very much else. As a feminist I feel passionately about these just mentioned issues and just get frustrated.

I don't understand your post VS. By their very 'nature', all trans women are members of the same group, they are all trans women and if they don't condemn the outrageous behaviour of some trans women, they risk being seen as condoning it.

They are at risk of being blamed if they don't speak out and could do so anonymously. Let's face it, the people we see waving their offensive placards often wear balaclavas and other face coverings so they cannot be identified; to be expected because bullies are usually cowards.

I'm not looking for my feelings to be soothed. I'm looking for the integration of trans genders into society which is not at the risk too, or at the expense of natal women.

It's the soothing of the feelings of trans activists that has caused this situation, and in the same way that women stood together to right the wrongs of a patriarchy society, trans people need to stand together and condemn the offensive behaviour of trans activists.

VS vs
So you want all trans people, who may not be members of the same organisation or even a member of any organisation at all, to affiliate themselves with disgusting behaviour by apologising/denouncing it?

Who said they wanted “all trans”? VS

So you want all people to use pronouns demanded by anyone who has decided that they have changed sex?

That was your request earlier in this thread Mimi.

I do denounce vile things that are said too or about anyone VS, and if I saw or heard anything vile said about trans gender people or anyone for that matter here on GN or anywhere else, I would and do call it out.

Unfortunately, the GC feminists as you call them only have to state the obvious that a man cannot be a woman, to be accused of being transphobic and worse.

I also want trans people integrated into society without any cost to women.

By nature all GC feminists are the same group

I still don't expect a group to denounce the behaviour of a more extreme element...

You know why?

Because I doubt GC feminsts welcome extremist behaviour or want the type of people who make threats of violence in their group anyway.

Same for trans people in general.

Same for Christians when there are factions of Christianity who make death threats against gay people or otherwise ate abusive to them

Same for any single demographic who is not responsible for the behaviour of others they want no affiliation with

Can't you see that at all?

Just seen on Twitter that Scottish police have confirmed this rapist's crimes will not be recorded as a man's crimes, they will be added to the women's crimes. Then they use these lies to say there's no increase in male offences.

Actually it was a question Mollygo

I'm not requesting anything apart from honest respectful discussion

Wyllow3

I think its fair to assume that just like the rest of the population, some trans people are """Activists" and speak out on their particular situation or issue, and many simply don't and live their lives. I dont expect all people of colour to have to act as spokespeople, nor gay people, nor someone with say a religious conviction to defend or accuse those in their "grouping.

There was yet another excellent programme today on the atrocities being committed on women in Iran. There are women in this country who still suffer FGM. I sometimes wonder why so much energy is spent on trans issues on GN, the same people raising an O/P with yet another "angle", and ignore so very much else. As a feminist I feel passionately about these just mentioned issues and just get frustrated.

Also everyone is ignoring Wyllow and aiming all their comments at me

Any particular reason for this or can we include them in the conversation?

Especially as

Good night

As a Christian, Christians making death threats against gay people are not Christians and are deluded if they think they are.

You seem to be contradicting yourself VS. Because I doubt GC feminists welcome extremist behaviour or want the type of people who make threats of violence in their group anyway. So why aren't trans gender people speaking out against the trans activists?

If they don't want to be seen as being affiliated with them, they need to stand against them.

There actually are wider issues that come from this, why would I trust what the BBC says on Afghanistan for example when they are describing this rapist as a woman, why would I trust the police with anything if they record a Male rapists crime as a womans crime.

you say you want honest respectful discussion VS but when posters respond to your posts you say that their comments are all directed at you, and accuse posters of ignoring another poster.

Itronically, if anyone protested against transpeople with placards advocating their beheading or cannibalisation, they would be arrested, as gender identity is a protected characteristic and sex is not. AFAIK this has never happened though.

All that fact-based feminists on here are arguing for is that men should not be given female status, not that anything should be taken from transpeople. We keep being told that trans rights won't detract from women's rights, but if that is the case the same applies in reverse.

Opinions may vary, but for me, what this would mean in practice is that there would be men, women, transmen, transwomen and non-binary people, and everyone would continue to be segregated by sex in the situations where it is deemed necessary (most of the time there is no need for segregation at all).

Transmen and transwomen could live their lives as they wish, and at all times be legally protected from abuse and discrimination, as they are already.

The extra protection that transpeople enjoy under the Equality Act should remain, and making misogyny a crime under the Act should be reconsidered, as this would bring women into line with transwomen and give us the same rights when it comes to legal protection against hatred.

Human rights should continue to apply to all humans, as they do already.

Any 'marginalisation' should be clearly explained, so that it can be mitigated and we should work towards its elimination. Currently it is difficult to know how to prevent the marginalisation of transpeople as the term is so vague as to be meaningless.

Women should be able to feel safe by not allowing men in places where women may be vulnerable, and should have the chance to compete in their sex class in things like sport, where their biology makes it unfair for them to compete against men.

Social data should not be collected in such a way that policies and situations that disadvantage women are made obvious, by classifying people by sex and not so-called 'gender', as that obscures reality.

Finally, the language should be allowed to develop by custom and practice as it has done for millennia, and not legislated for with words and expressions being forced on people, legally or by social pressure.

What is unreasonable about any of that?

My post is aimed at anyone with an opinion on the matter

Nothing unreasonable at all Doodledog.

Wyllow if you would like there to be more discussion of other matters affecting women, why not start threads that interest you? The balance of thread topics is in all of our hands.

Doodledog would you please stop posting sensible ideas?Especially your last paragraph about language? When you post a concept that no reasonably intelligent being could refute it causes extreme distress amongst certain 'specialist interests'