Will you be lighting a candle today?

Franbern - why would I forget that the Holocaust was also about other groups who were not Jews? I could get shirty and let you know that I have read a great deal about the Holocaust.
I know that there are others who don't already know this.

I could get shirty and say "How dare you claim that I don't know people who complain about religious persecution but only in relation to Israel?"

It may be inconvenient for me to have mentioned it but it's the truth, regardless of whether you believe me. Even worse, some of them are members of the Labour Party - how depressing is that? I do agree though that socialists are in the forefront of condemning religious persecution wherever it occurs and I am pleased to hear that you have also supported religious persecution in countries other than Israel.

I am not going to get into an argument about Keir Starmer and the direction of the current Labour Party. We need a Labour Government and he happens to be the leader. He wouldn't have been my choice but it was the democratic choice.

Every year on Holocaust Memorial Day I am filled with sadness about the family I never had the chance to know, just as you may be, and judging by your last paragraph we have more in common than you can know.

You did a good deed by your OP in reminding people to light a candle. However passionate you feel about persecution and the Israeli government, if you reply to this post please do not make any more wrongful accusations about my truthfulness or any assumptions about me and what I believe. Ironically, I had that all my life from my mother - a Holocaust survivor who was so badly damaged by her privations and sufferings that she couldn't stop herself from accusing me of many shameful and ridiculous things that have stayed with me for ever.

I am not your enemy.

I was unable to light a candle as I was shopping .

I was with some Muslim friends , who are deeply distressed by the racism which is being directed against them .

I prayed when I returned home .

Recently, I 've reread The Holocaust by Martin Gilbert .

It's a truly harrowing chronicle of the events that occurred .

I don't think that films can actually reflect the horrendous events and perhaps we need to see what really happened . I wonder if we could watch it .

I have a lot of Jewish friends - Orthodox and non Orthodox , but they tend not to talk about it .
I think that it's just too painful to remember .

Two came over on the kinder transport and others lost most of their family in Europe .

This is an interesting and informative thread.

Thank you, Franbern

Ramblingrose22

Mmmm, I didn't mean to open up a fresh debate on Israel and the Palestinians and I do not support religious persecution or apartheid of any kind. I know some people who often criticise Israel but - oddly - they never criticise the religious persecution currently being carried out by other governments.

Unfortunately there is a lot of conflation of being anti the policies of the Israeli government with being anti-semitic. This can muddy the waters considerably.

Whilst I do worry about the current Israeli government I would never accuse them of replicating Nazi policies and respectfully suggest that comparing Israel with the Third Reich is not only incorrect in so many ways but also inflammatory and offensive to many.

I am sure that we all deplore the recent attacks in Israel and they will not diminish the importance of Holocaust Memorial Day as far as I am concerned.

Do not forget that The Holocaust' was not just the jews, but the disabled, the Gay, Romanies, Trades unionists and Socialists.

As for the saying that those of us who dare to condemn the right wing current Israeli government are quiet on religious persecution etc. in other countries, - where on earth do you get thi s bit of mis-information from. How dare you make this sort of completely untrue statement. It is socialists who are foremost in condemning ALL forms of religious persecution, anywhere and everywhere it appears and in whatever form.

So, we condemn the Taliban for their persecution of women, as we do those USA states which also persecutes women with their anti-abortion laws - (all done in the name of religion).

Keir Starmar as ensured that far too many people like myself, Labour {arty members since the early 1960's, no longer have a place in the current Labour Party as we dare to oppose the very right wing governmet in Israel. His quite deliberately confusing of anti-israel with anti-semitism in order to rid the Labour Party of thousands of long-term active socialists. Yes, I am angry with this.

We used to be called 'rent-a-mob, because we had so often to be demonstrate against so many wrongs taking place all over the world, I was there against the bomb, supporting Nelson Mandela (when he was first arrested and inprisoned), supporting Trades Unions, worrying about the Cuba crisis. and then in later years, marching against the proposed Iraq war, supporting BAME protests. etc. etc.

Can no longer go on demos. But still give so many of them my support and am so very grateful to see many younger people picking up these battles. But one of the saddest things I see now is the Labour Party going along the road it is, and expelling so many socialists really does break my heart.

I have close family in Israel, love them all, but I just cannot condone the stealing of land, the apartheid measures that have been brought in, the abandonment of so much that the State of Israel was founded on, the killing of children (firstly dehumanising them and calling them terrorists). I do know that there are brave Israeli's who are so much against this, and I salute them.

Yes, good post. Boycotts and world condemantion certainly helped bring Apartheid to an end in South Africa, for instance.

What I said, is that if people remain silent, at some point they condone, and somehow become part of it. For Germans in Nazi times, that was very difficult, and put themselves and their loved ones at huge risk (as in the Book Thief- as an illustration). Jews in the UK, in our Universities, all over Europe and the rest of the world, can condemn what is happening to the Palestinians, without risk to their lives. They might get into arguments with others, even be ostracised - but they are free to do it.

And we could all boycott Israeli goods, just as we boycotted those from SA.

No people can subjugate, steal the land and destroy another- because it was done to them. It just does not make sense and is inhumane.

Ramblingrose22

Mmmm, I didn't mean to open up a fresh debate on Israel and the Palestinians and I do not support religious persecution or apartheid of any kind. I know some people who often criticise Israel but - oddly - they never criticise the religious persecution currently being carried out by other governments.

Unfortunately there is a lot of conflation of being anti the policies of the Israeli government with being anti-semitic. This can muddy the waters considerably.

Whilst I do worry about the current Israeli government I would never accuse them of replicating Nazi policies and respectfully suggest that comparing Israel with the Third Reich is not only incorrect in so many ways but also inflammatory and offensive to many.

I am sure that we all deplore the recent attacks in Israel and they will not diminish the importance of Holocaust Memorial Day as far as I am concerned.

As a Labour Party member - and a human being I totally agree with you Rambling Rose and thank you for that very considered post.

Thanks for your post, Fleurpepper.

Some Jews living here have stood up and denounced the policies of the Israeli government and others have kept their views to themselves. It's really for indiduals to decide.

Would the latest Israeli government change its policies because Jews in other countries express their opposition to its policies? I don't think so as the views of both sides are fairly entrenched by now. Of course that is just my personal view and I realise that others will disagree.

Some cynical types would argue that protests and trade boycotts have never changed anything because only people with power (i.e. governments) can. History has shown that it takes enlightened leaders with vision like Gandhi or Nelson Mandela to change hearts and minds from within their own countries and sadly no such person has been around yet in Israel or among the Palestinians.

I do acknowledge, however, that great advances were made by "outsiders" to bring peace in Northern Ireland but the unionists and the republicans still had to want peace too and agree to work together at that time in order for the Good Friday Agreement to have been signed.

I hope that nothing I have said in this post causes offence as that is not my intention.

Ramblingrose ' It should be remembered that Jews living in the UK are not responsible for what any Israeli government decides to do any more than all the Russians living here support Putin's war against Ukraine.'

of course we remember. But what do they do, do they keep quiet and/or condone? Or do they stand up and denounce?

I’ve just watched the film of Anne Frank’s Diary on BBC2. I had a Dutch friend, from Amsterdam and a decade older than me, who knew the Franks slightly. She said they were luckier than many people in hiding, having much more space than most. Though, of course, they were not lucky in the end. My friend carried messages for the resistance when she was a young girl. Her father was killed.

It is all very real to me.

Totally agree with you Rr22.

Mmmm, I didn't mean to open up a fresh debate on Israel and the Palestinians and I do not support religious persecution or apartheid of any kind. I know some people who often criticise Israel but - oddly - they never criticise the religious persecution currently being carried out by other governments.

Unfortunately there is a lot of conflation of being anti the policies of the Israeli government with being anti-semitic. This can muddy the waters considerably.

Whilst I do worry about the current Israeli government I would never accuse them of replicating Nazi policies and respectfully suggest that comparing Israel with the Third Reich is not only incorrect in so many ways but also inflammatory and offensive to many.

I am sure that we all deplore the recent attacks in Israel and they will not diminish the importance of Holocaust Memorial Day as far as I am concerned.

Israel's apartheid policy regarding the Palestinian is a total stain on this country which will follow it for a very long time. Organisations and people like the the British Boards of Jews and Keir Starmar who condone these horrific happenings and work hard to try to get those who oppose it seen as anti-jewish should be hanging their heads is total shame.

Most of the people who have been expelled from the Labour Party in the last couple of years for being 'anti-semetic' (because they have been vocal in opposition to the current Israeli government), have been Jewish. ALL have been know and long-term anti-rcists (including Jeremy Corbyn).

These sort of people throw a long shadow over Holocaust Memorial Day, when they are now and/or supporting the continuing the policies of the Nazis.

So, two attacks in East Jerusalem resulting in death.

And, in the UK I still hear people saying ' push the boats back out - let them drown' regarding those people desperately trying to find safety and some sort of life for themselves and their families.

So much support for the people of Ukraine - where is the same for those in Iran, Yemen etc.? Should we be sending tanks and arms to the Palestinians in their war?

My mother lost most of her family in the Holocaust, including a pair of my grandparents. Lighting a candle is a good way of remembering all those who have suffered and suffer today from religious persecution.

That is why I think we need to be vigilant about the rise of extreme right wing groups and parties in the UK. And social media show no sign of trying to curb hate speech whatever they claim. Unfortunately they can influence some credulous people who may be unhappy or unhinged. That is why having well funded mental health services is so important.

In case anyone thinks I am exaggerating let us not forget the lone wolf extremists like the one who killed Jo Cox , the one who killed people attending a conference near London Bridge and another who fatally crashed his vehicle into a member of a London mosque. We can only hope that GCHQ and others keep them under observation to prevent further killings.

Finally, I am sure that most, if not all, Jews living in the UK would like to see a lasting solution to the strife between Israel and the Palestinians.

A report in the past week has shown a disturbing increase in anti-semitism against Jewish university students who have suffered harassment. It should be remembered that Jews living in the UK are not responsible for what any Israeli government decides to do any more than all the Russians living here support Putin's war against Ukraine.

I am a member of a Scots for Palestinians group.we march with banners and we have a large contingent of Jewish/scots who march with us .
The issue isn't about jewish people in general its the Israeli state ,WE are not anti semitic ...just pro palestinian.
Any other country treating large numbers of people the way Paletinians have been and are being treated would be brought to book for it.Even the UN just accepts the ignored resolutions that shpuld have been enforced .Of course the whole "Israel" issue was very badly thpght out...if it was even thought out in the 40's.
Maybe its time to rethink those boundaries that are being breached daily and give aid to the people affected?

Jaberwok

Yes ordinary everyday people did allow, and turn away from these dreadful events, but it is so easy for us, living in safety, to condemn. Standing up against such a regime required extraordinary bravery, for not only were you risking your own life but that of family and close friends, the thought of the consequences to your children, parents, as well as yourself on discovery or betrayal were sobering, and I'm not sure how any of us would have reacted under such circumstances. Would we have been that brave?

Read 'The Book Thief' and this is so well illustrated.

But are we standing up now for the weak and those fleeing the horrors of war- even though we are not at risk?

Jewish friends who are standing up against the horrors perpetrated right now by Israelis on to the Palestinians are being threatened with violence and more.

Jaberwok

Yes ordinary everyday people did allow, and turn away from these dreadful events, but it is so easy for us, living in safety, to condemn. Standing up against such a regime required extraordinary bravery, for not only were you risking your own life but that of family and close friends, the thought of the consequences to your children, parents, as well as yourself on discovery or betrayal were sobering, and I'm not sure how any of us would have reacted under such circumstances. Would we have been that brave?

'Defying Hitler - A Memoir' by Sebastian Haffner depicts how it was to be a citizen at that time. I found it immensely moving.

Yes ordinary everyday people did allow, and turn away from these dreadful events, but it is so easy for us, living in safety, to condemn. Standing up against such a regime required extraordinary bravery, for not only were you risking your own life but that of family and close friends, the thought of the consequences to your children, parents, as well as yourself on discovery or betrayal were sobering, and I'm not sure how any of us would have reacted under such circumstances. Would we have been that brave?

I didn't know about the candle but have had a thoughtful day. I have read two non fiction books this month 'Lily's Promise' and 'A Village in the 'Third Reich'. Both are amazing and painful reads, one the testimony of a survivor and the other a history of a small town in Germany.
We must always remember and be aware of 'othering' and that ordinary people allowed and enabled these horrific events

I’m ashamed to say that I didn’t know (or have forgotten) that it was Holocaust Memorial Day. I’m from a German Jewish background and some of my distant relatives will have died in the camps. I have made a note for next year.

Davida1968

Definitely will light a candle this afternoon. Like many other GNs here, my parents were in the army in the war (yes, Mum too). They always stressed the importance of standing up for everyone, against tyranny.

Absolutely. Whilst we remember the victims of Nazi Germany, let us also remember the suffering in Ukraine and remember why we need to send them arms as well as aid.

www.facebook.com/100064563434937/posts/pfbid02xpJ9RJaRJ3bRC8AEguKSiWJTBdCfkoZnuwwZpEXqjgjsC1jmHYJ8H1M6KJD9v5Y1l/

Holocaust Memorial Day from the National Memorial Arboretum today.

and those 100s of young kids arriving in UK who have disappeared and are very possibly being abused in so many cruel of ways.

Thank you Franbern. I have lit a candle to remember all who died and continue to do so.

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Do remember that it was not just jews who died in those camps. Socialists, Trade Unionists, Romanies, anyone with mental or physical disabilities. and Homosexuals were also there.

It has continued long after those camps were liberated and closed down. And continues at this very moment.

Once someone is de-humanised it happens. Israeli's de=humanise the Palestinians, Trump attempted to do this with the Mexicans seeking refuge. In this country it is happening with the tragic boat people.

Vigilance and the acceptance of all people regardless of skin colour, religion, gender orientation etc. is the only hope for the future.