WW 3 ..is this the reality?

In years to come they will say the war was extended by the slowness of NATO countries giving Ukraine what it needed.

Let’s hope the result is an Ukraine win and Putin being made to pay for his murderous invasion.

NanKate if you ask any military personnel about how to resolve conflict/war, the view is that political solutions kick in once the fighting has reached stalemate.
Bearing that in mind, it’s arguably true that the West is prolonging this conflict as stalemate will take much longer?

ronib

NanKate if you ask any military personnel about how to resolve conflict/war, the view is that political solutions kick in once the fighting has reached stalemate.
Bearing that in mind, it’s arguably true that the West is prolonging this conflict as stalemate will take much longer?

The alternative to the West’s involvement wouldn’t be stalemate and a political solution, Russia doesn’t recognise Ukraine, so it would be subjugation.

Casdon I am probably in a minority but for the life of me, I can’t see Russia walking away from this conflict undefeated. Russia is too proud to admit defeat and will throw every Russian young soldier at the problem.

If the west hadn't intervened and supplied weaponry, Ukraine would have been taken over by Russia by now, but you would have a low level guerilla war going on between oppressors and oppressed and that kind of war can be nastier, messier and lead to more deaths than a more formal war between countries, at least theoretically, governed by the Geneva Conventions.

MOnica I thought the issue for Putin was that a guerilla war had been ongoing in Ukraine in the Donbas since 2014 and he felt justified in bringing it to a speedy conclusion to save more lives. Sounds bizarre I agree but that’s one interpretation at least.

I feel as I have been dropped down a rabbit hole. I have just read that Putin invoked United Nations Article 51 which provides legal justification for a military operation in Ukraine. Putin is in compliance with international law it seems.
www.global research.ca
Setting the record straight;stuff you should know about Ukraine.
Mike Whitney

Curious and curiouser

It also seems that Ukraine did not commit or threaten to commit an armed attack against Russia. Donetsk and Luhansk are not UN states. Ukraine was fighting a civil war.
Therefore United Nations Article 51 would not apply?

Putin may well have invoked Article 51 over the Donbas but he had already taken over Crimea, then when the invasion started he not only moved into Donbass but attempted to attack Kiev as well before he was driven back.

The real plan was to annex the whole of Ukraine and install a Russia friendly government like Belarus, he was not expecting them to fight. Now Putins justification is to liberate Donbass again, his future depends on holding that territory, if he looses it he will be deposed.

maddyone

DaisyAnne I already listed the facts in my post of 01.23. Why do I need to do it again?
But since you need it twice, here are the facts for you;

1) Annexation of Crimea by Putin
2) Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko, using polonium delivered by a cup of tea in a London hotel by Russian agents
3) Attempted poisoning of the Skripals using novichov in Salisbury by Russian agents
4) One woman died and four people seriously injured by novochov in Salisbury following the attempted murder of the Skripals by Russian agents
5) The shooting down of flight MH17 over Ukraine murdering 298 people by a Russian surface to air missile which was moved into position the morning it happened

What exactly are you disputing? The above are undisputed facts. They describe Russian aggression and incursions into the sovereign land of other countries, in two cases incursions into Britain to commit illegal and aggressive acts.

None of those are " undisputed" facts though are they?
Just because something is what your government and media choose to report as fact, doesn't make them so.
Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq were reported as fact by the US and UK to justify an illegal invasion.
By your own definition that makes the US and UK guilty of the same acts of aggression as Russia doesn't it?

ronib

I feel as I have been dropped down a rabbit hole. I have just read that Putin invoked United Nations Article 51 which provides legal justification for a military operation in Ukraine. Putin is in compliance with international law it seems.
www.global research.ca
Setting the record straight;stuff you should know about Ukraine.
Mike Whitney

Curious and curiouser

So who is Mike Whitney? What particular axe is he grinding?

Daisy Anne Global Research is based in Montreal, Canada and aims for the unspoken truth!
Mike Whitney writes for Global Research. You raise the question what particular axe does he grind but you can ask this for all comment as all are filtered through one ideology or another. He has conservative as a tag line.

He is incorrect ronib, it really surprises me that you haven’t done wider investigation yourself into this, because it doesn’t reflect any other interpretations of article 51 except Russia’s own - and of course that’s what they would say.

www.chathamhouse.org/2022/02/ukraine-debunking-russias-legal-justifications

And from the UN.
unsdg.un.org/latest/announcements/russias-invasion-ukraine-violation-un-charter-un-chief-tells-security-council

Normandygirl of course the facts I listed are undisputed facts.
You are trying hard to justify Russia’s aggression and frankly I think that is absolutely disgusting.

Casdon my post at 6.30 stated that Article 51 would not apply.

Do you agree that Ukraine was fighting a civil war?

ronib

Casdon my post at 6.30 stated that Article 51 would not apply.

Apologies ronib you did say that after your initial post. I scan read the thread, which was careless.

ronib

Do you agree that Ukraine was fighting a civil war?

Ukraine was and is defending its own internationally agreed territory.

Casdon from the UN
The war on Ukraine is senseless in its scope, ruthless in its dimensions and limitless in its potential for global harm.
The cycle of death, destruction, dislocation and disruption must stop.
It is high time to unite and end this war.

It feels as if it’s going to be Russia who is going to end the war by escalating it to air attacks to bring about a resolution. We shall sit by and see.

Ukraine was and is defending its own internationally agreed territory.

Absolutely. It’s really not too difficult for most people to understand. A country that is aggressively invaded and has its people raped and murdered, and it’s infrastructure smashed to bits has every right to defend itself.

Seriously worrying stuff

www.politico.eu/article/russia-nuclear-ships-norway-ukraine-war/

Fleurpepper

Seriously worrying stuff

www.politico.eu/article/russia-nuclear-ships-norway-ukraine-war/

Russian submarines and/or navy vessels are on constant patrol in the North Atlantic, as are U.K. and American subs/vessels

Do they normally carry nuclear weapons, is the question here.

Fleurpepper

Do they normally carry nuclear weapons, is the question here.

Yes